2nd example of MOL on the Mirabilis ICQ

I had a second MOL discussion on the Mirabilis ICQ with a person named
Julia.

I am attaching the conversation we had to this post.

Thanks for the response to the first example. I thought everyone was
right on target.

It is surprising to me that people are willing to have this sort of
chat, it is so different than the usual ones.

Mark Lazure is on the Mirabilis ICQ now, so we have two PCTers. This
is becoming interesting.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: 2nd example of MOL on the Mirabilis ICQ
Date: 1/8/98

--------------------------------------
       ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Thu Jan 08 00:37:14 1998

--------------------------------------
<David> Hello.
<Julia> Hello
<David> How are you tonight?
<Julia> I am fine, and yoou?
<David> OK. Hope you didn't cut short your chat with your brother.
<Julia> No, he is on aol, and we talk everyday
<David> Are you ready to start?
<Julia> yes
<David> You can pick any topic or subject about which you have strong feelings.
<Julia> Hmmm let me think
<David> OK.
<Julia> how about the disease concept of alcoholism and drug addiction?
<David> Tell me what you mean by this.
<Julia> Well, you said any topic....I feel strongly about this
<David> What is the feeling you have?
<Julia> I believe in the disease concept
<Julia> thinking
<David> Pretend that I am ignorant about this. What would you say to convince me or educate me.
<Julia> I see....
<Julia> well, I believe that one is born with the disease of addiction
<Julia> it is not something you "get" or catch..
<Julia> it is not a learned behavior
<David> OK.
<David> Suppose that I said " That is nonsense " What is your reaction?
<Julia> Please bear with me as I need time to think before I speak
<David> OK.
<Julia> I guess that I would try to explain what the disease concept means
<Julia> Also, my spelling can be not so good <smiling>
<Julia> You want more than that?
<David> No that is fine. Your comment about spelling is interesting. What thought or feeling is behind it?
<Julia> Perfectionism!!!!
<David> Tell me more.
<Julia> Feelings of..."being less than"
<David> This is an example of the method of levels. You "went up a level" There was a background thought and it showed up in your comment about the spelling.
<Julia> can you explain that, please
<Julia> right.....I understand
<David> We were talking about one topic. Namely, the disease comment. You made a comment about your spelling. This suggested to me that an attitude was behind it.
<David> So we can switch topics and talk about perfectionism.
<Julia> ok...such as I said about the feeling?
<Julia> ok
<Julia> Do you want me to start?
<David> Yes. What does being perfect mean to you?
<Julia> Shall I explain why I feel as I do?
<Julia> Got you
<David> NO. Just what perfect means to you.
<Julia> I know that there is no perfect person but....
<Julia> I guess the feelings are just "old tapes" from the past of never
<Julia> feeling good enough
<David> Can you give me an example of not feeling good enough?
<Julia> In order to be accepted one must be ...perfect
<Julia> Let me think
<Julia> I am afraid this would be too complicated to do here on line but
<Julia> I will try//////
<David> Thanks.
<Julia> Not graduating from high school
<Julia> More?
<David> Is this a specific example which actually happened?
<Julia> yes, very much so...more so in the past as I have spent many
<Julia> years in college now...off and on
<David> In this example, what would you identify as the moment when the feeling of not feeling good enough was strongest.
<Julia> the moment when i married at 15 and was , shall we say...exiled
<Julia> banned....from friends...by society in general
<David> Can you remember a specific day, time and place when this happened?
<Julia> Not really, it was a constant feeling for years
<David> Can you remember when it first started?
<Julia> As I said, it first started at age 15///upon my ill fated marriage
<David> If you were perfect, how would have things been different at that moment?
<Julia> I would not have been married and pregnant
<Julia> I could have finished school
<David> If your marriage had worked out better, would you still think of it as not being perfect?
<Julia> NO...there is/was no way for it to have worked out
<Julia> It was a very abusive time that finally ended in his suicide
<Julia> not in..with
<David> I didn't understand this last part.
<Julia>
<Julia> That it could not have worked?
<David> The phrase: not in..with
<Julia> I was correcting myself......grammer
<David> Again, to be perfect?
<Julia> I guess you are right
<David> You said that being perfect was a way of being accepted. Is it the only way?
<Julia> Intelect...aI am nervous...I know it is not....but I still feel that way
<Julia> I know better, but i have never been able to shake this feeling
<David> What would it be like if by magic you could shake the feeling of not being good enough?
<Julia> Ohhh I have used that before......now I must answer it myself
<Julia> let me see....I guess that ...sorry, i need to think about that one
<David> Ok, take your time.
<Julia> I guess that I would feel loved and accepted by my peers...yes
<Julia> I wear many masks, David
<David> What would it be like if you were loved and accepted by your peers. What difference would that make.
<Julia> I would be treated as an equal.......
<David> Can you give me an example of equal treatment?
<Julia> i will try...
<Julia> For instance, i feel that I am "below" you because you are a psychologist and I still need 20 hours in order to get my degree
<Julia> I often feel that people look down on me no matter how
<Julia> hard i try to better myself
<David>
<David> Do you feel/think that our conversation would be different if we were equals?
<Julia> No, not at this time because i agreed to participate in your survey
<Julia> But...no but
<Julia> In a way I do
<David> Are there any areas where you feel equal to people?
<Julia> Only when i am with someone who has less education than I do
<Julia> Sounds silly...I know that too
<David> What is silly about it?
<Julia> One would think that by now...i am 59 yrs old...I would know better
<David> What is silly about it, forgetting your age.
<Julia> I have been in therapy and have tried to work on this...to no avail
<Julia> I am an addiction therapist myself...I "should" know better
<David> What do you think is stopping you from resolving it?
<Julia> Gosh...that would take up too much of your time I am afraid
<David> Can you imagine that you have resolved this and what that would be like for you?
<Julia> Will try.......
<Julia> No, I cannot...honest...cannot even imagine it
<David> What is it like to feel stuck the way you are?
<Julia> It is a terrible feeling...always with me...
<Julia> this is the reason for the masks....do not want anyone to know
<Julia> i want to just run away from situations where I feel this way
<Julia> Therefore, i pretty much stay to myself...except for family
<David> When you are with yourself, are you still comparing yourself and feeling not good enough?
<Julia> Sometimes...not often...I am comfortable being alone
<Julia> I do not like to be around a lot of people....part of this is due
<Julia> to my personality, part is due to the way I feel about myself
<David> Is this a satisfactory solution for you, staying by yourself, or do you wish more
<Julia> Not really, i often wish I could be different...but I am not
<Julia> Maybe not different...comfortable around people
<David> Are there any people you feel comfortable around?
<Julia> Yes, a few other than family
<David> What makes them exceptions to the general rule?
<Julia> For some, it is that I have more education than they...for others,
<Julia> it is just a "knowing" feeling that I am accepted
<Julia> The latter seldom happens
<David> Can you give me a specific example where it does?
<Julia> When I feel accepted?
<David> Yes?
<Julia> I cannot think of an example right now.....guess I must not feel it too often
<David> When was the feeling of being accepted the strongest?
<Julia>
<Julia> Other that by my children?
<Julia> It was probably when I married my present husband...but it was short lived
<David> Short lived?
<Julia> He is also a professional man, and thus i felt special..for lack of a better word
<David> What was there about you which made him want to marry you?
<Julia> I think it was my youth...he is older than i......but...as time went on,
<Julia> i learned that I was never young enough for him....the feelings returned
<David> What do you mean young enough for him?
<Julia> He was always looking for younger friends....found them, too
<David> What was your reaction to his search for younger friends?
<Julia> Anger, jealously...shame because i was not young enough
<David> If you could have made yourself young enough, would you have done it?
<Julia> I don't know...I was young myself....i did not understand then
<David> You stayed with him?
<Julia> Yes, except for 6 years...from 89-94
<David> What made you come back?
<Julia> You ready for this one???
<Julia> Security...false...tired of being alone and having nothing.....
<Julia> And the children, too...even they are all grown..all 10 of them!
<David> Wow, 10 children.
<Julia> I had 2 from my first marriage and three with him...I raised his 5 daughters from another marriage
<David> Do you like being a mom, parent?
<Julia> As a child, it was all I ever wanted..to be a wife and mother
<Julia> I am very maternal
<Julia> Yes is the answer
<David> Do you feel that any of your children feel unequal, not good enough?
<Julia> No, I believe that I did a pretty good job so that they would not ever feel that way
<David> Well, then you have found a way out of the problem. You have to find someone to treat you the way you treated your children.
<Julia> I am afraid that will not be possible for me...My husband is almost 75 and I will have to take care of him...he has good points too
<Julia> but I do not love him...haven't since 1980
<Julia> I am trapped
<Julia> I trapped myself, I know that now
<David> Tell me what it is like to be trapped.
<Julia> It is an angry feeling..unfairness....
<Julia> We have a plontic relationship and that is very hard too
<Julia> platonic....
<David> Julia, I am afraid I have to go soon. I would be glad to talk some more at another time.
<Julia> Well, did you learn anything from me??
<David> I was going to ask you what you thought of it?
<Julia> I hope I was of some help to your survey
<David> Yes you were. What was your experience of doing this?
<Julia> I learned that I need to work harder regarding my feelings of low self esteem
<Julia> I found it interesting that I told you as much as I have
<David> OK.
<David> Is it OK for me to save the file of our conversation?
<Julia> Well, again, it has been interesting and I thank you for your time too
<David> Your welcome.
<David> Thank you.
<Julia> Yes because no names or locations are mentioned
<David> And may I show it to others ?
<Julia> Good night
<David> Thanks.
--------------------------------------

[From Bill Powers (980109.1343 MST)]

From: David Goldstein
Subject: 2nd example of MOL on the Mirabilis ICQ
Date: 1/8/98

I had a second MOL discussion on the Mirabilis ICQ with a person named
Julia.

I am attaching the conversation we had to this post.

Thanks for the response to the first example. I thought everyone was
right on target.

It is surprising to me that people are willing to have this sort of
chat, it is so different than the usual ones.

Mark Lazare is on the Mirabilis ICQ now, so we have two PCTers. This
is becoming interesting.

I'll say it is. It's funny, because I didn't think much of the session on
the first reading, but reading it again a day later was completely
different. Julia went from talking about addiction -- her professional
interest -- to some really useful thinking about her life. I thought you
handled the questioning and the level shifts very naturally, very smoothly,
with very little pushing or directing. Perhaps this was because you let her
have most of the control over the pace.

Your picking on her spelling remark was VERY sharp. I might have let it
pass, but you're absolutely right; that was a message from a higher level.
As immediately became obvious.

Speaking of pace, how long did that session last? It seems to me that she
found her way up three or four levels about as fast as humanly possible,
pausing at each level just enough to get an idea of what it was, and then
going right on to the next.

I think you're getting pretty good at this. As you re-read the session, are
there any details you would change if you could do it again?

Best,

Bill P.

Thanks for comments.

Bill asks: Speaking of pace, how long did that session last?

I am not really sure, not too long. I will have to start timing it. I
think that the information at the top gives the start time and date. If
so, I will simply record the finish time.

Bill asks: As you re-read the session, are there any details you would
change if you could do it again?

There are references to "masks that she wears." I could have followed up
on this.

When I suggested to her that she has found the solution to the problem
of not feeling good enough, because none of her children do, she
mininterprets the remark to mean that I was suggesting she should look
for another man. This probably means that she has thought of/is
thinking of this alternative. I might have followed up.

Again, thanks for the comments.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: Re:2nd example of MOL on the Mirabilis ICQ;
         Bill Powers (980109.1343 MST)
Date: 1/9/98