A modern Passover Story

[From David Goldstein
(2003.04.16. 1328)]

There was a Pharaoh named Saddam.

He ruled a land named Iraq.

There was a Moses named Bush.

He made the people of Iraq his people.

“Let my people go, said Bush.”

“No, no, no” said Saddam.

With God on his side, Bush sent plagues on the land of Iraq.

There were planes, ships and many people with weapons of
non-mass destruction.

The plagues were very kind and killed only the bad people,
not any good people.

The Pharaoh gave in, a victim of the plague known as the MOAB (Mother Of All Bombs).

The people of Iraq wondered through
the desert of looting and forming a new government.

Hopefully, someday they will reach the Promised Land of
democracy and capitalism.

Bush helped to protect the oil riches of the country by
stopping the oil to the evil neighbor of Pharaoh known as Assad.

The oil was kept safely in the land of Texas and the oil
prices dropped in the land of Bush.

Bush never got to see the Promised Land and lost his rule in
the next election because of the plague that attacked the economy in the land of Bush.

Bush followed in his father’s footsteps, right up to
the end.

[From Rick Marken (2003.04.19.0940)]

David Goldstein (2003.04.16. 1328)

With God on his side, Bush sent plagues on the land of Iraq.
There were planes, ships and many people with weapons of non-mass
destruction. The plagues were very kind and killed only the bad
people, not any good people.

Which, if true, would have been a huge improvement over the approach God used
in Egypt.

I'm sorry. I just can't get excited about any religious celebration of the
"smiting of the first born". I know we're supposed to feel all regretful
about that. But it's hard for me to digest even the best Jewish meal after
celebrating a god that can't think of some better way to "let his people go"
(why did he let them be enslaved in the first place?) than by killing
innocent people's children.

With best wishes from the Enlightenment

Rick

From [ Marc Abrams (2003.04.16.2327) ]

[From Rick Marken (2003.04.19.0940)]

I'm sorry. I just can't get excited about any religious celebration of the

"smiting of the first born".

How touching. Was this some deep insight you got from PCT? ( I don't think so )

Friday was the 60th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. Do you know about
that Rick? Did you know that 30,000 Jews died there in 30 days. It took the
Moth__ Fu__ Nazi's 30 days to level the ghetto. These were people who
refused to go quietly to the railhead and be shipped to Buchenwald and
other hellholes. Yes the same "God" that gave you that, gave you the
"slaying of the first born". It's also the same "god" who "gave" slavery to
the Blacks, and "allowed" slavery in Saudi Arabia until 1962. It's the same
"god" who is "allowing" slavery and murder to take place as we speak in
Sierra Leone and the Congo, among other places in Africa.

But interestingly enough it's also the same "god" that gave _you_ life.

I know we're supposed to feel all regretful
about that. But it's hard for me to digest even the best Jewish meal after
celebrating a god that can't think of some better way to "let his people go"
(why did he let them be enslaved in the first place?) than by killing
innocent people's children.

Please tell me you're not this naive and ignorant about the history? Who
ever said "god" was a "benevolent" "entity". Do you really believe he's
Santa Claus?

Marc

···

At 11:39 AM 4/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:

the truth will set you free...

respecfully...
it is the same God who loved so much the wold that He sent us his beloved
son to be put to shame on the cross...

and to conquer death and to resurrect...

so that death no longer has any power...

because the sting of death is the Law, as StPaul says.

And Jesus gave His Life for Us

If only we understood time and space like Einstein

In memoriam of those who will resurrect never to know death again, those
named below.

Shalom

Paule A. Steichen. Asch, Ph.D.
IBIS Int'l
Individual Building of Integrated Success
2101 Grandin Road
Cincinnati OH 45208
voicemail: (513) 289-5998
fax: (513) 871-soul/7685
pasteichenasch@fuse.net

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Abrams" <mabrams@NVBB.NET>
To: <CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: A modern Passover Story

From [ Marc Abrams (2003.04.16.2327) ]

At 11:39 AM 4/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>[From Rick Marken (2003.04.19.0940)]

I'm sorry. I just can't get excited about any religious celebration of the
>"smiting of the first born".

How touching. Was this some deep insight you got from PCT? ( I don't think

so )

Friday was the 60th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. Do you know about
that Rick? Did you know that 30,000 Jews died there in 30 days. It took

the

Moth__ Fu__ Nazi's 30 days to level the ghetto. These were people who
refused to go quietly to the railhead and be shipped to Buchenwald and
other hellholes. Yes the same "God" that gave you that, gave you the
"slaying of the first born". It's also the same "god" who "gave" slavery

to

the Blacks, and "allowed" slavery in Saudi Arabia until 1962. It's the

same

"god" who is "allowing" slavery and murder to take place as we speak in
Sierra Leone and the Congo, among other places in Africa.

But interestingly enough it's also the same "god" that gave _you_ life.

>I know we're supposed to feel all regretful
>about that. But it's hard for me to digest even the best Jewish meal

after

>celebrating a god that can't think of some better way to "let his people

go"

>(why did he let them be enslaved in the first place?) than by killing
>innocent people's children.

Please tell me you're not this naive and ignorant about the history? Who
ever said "god" was a "benevolent" "entity". Do you really believe he's
Santa Claus?

Marc

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0420.0712)]

It's all perception, no?

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

hi, Bruce, Hi Gray:

I can only speak on my own recognizance.
The weather is nice, I choose to play golf. today is easter, and thursday
was passover both jewish and christian.
I have work to do, but then I am way past the ae of the Noel prize (may be
not?0.

For me, I believe that I will be resurrected from the dead as is said in
Ezechiel.

So, I try to honor God and love my neighbor.
By that I mean do volunteer work (GED & learning disability).

Mostly I pray God to set me free from bondage.

I have a good life.
Most importantly, I have inner peace, one day at a time.

I am conscious, most of the time, that it is all for me about perception: I
am not delusional.
Deep in my heart, in a recess difficult to describe with wors, I know that
there is a heaven; and that I may apply myself to bring it to earth.
I know that on my own I am impotent.
But with the grace of Giod...

I use the "I" for modesty. I am well read, a researcher too, and could
quote to doomsday. I am certainly less bright and talened than many on this
list.

But what is all the knowledge of the world, and all he action of the world,
if my heart has not opened?

shalom

to golf

paule

Paule A. Steichen. Asch, Ph.D.
IBIS Int'l
Individual Building of Integrated Success
2101 Grandin Road
Cincinnati OH 45208
voicemail: (513) 289-5998
fax: (513) 871-soul/7685
pasteichenasch@fuse.net

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Gregory" <bruce@JOINCANADANOW.ORG>
To: <CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: A modern Passover Story

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0420.0712)]

It's all perception, no?

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

sorry for typos...an excuse? I type really fast, and I am not used to my new
HP (or the keboard is not very equal).

I meant that deep down in my heart, I know that God loves me and has created
me. Sure I have to do my part. I more and more want to do my part.

So long

paule
Paule A. Steichen. Asch, Ph.D.
IBIS Int'l
Individual Building of Integrated Success
2101 Grandin Road
Cincinnati OH 45208
voicemail: (513) 289-5998
fax: (513) 871-soul/7685
pasteichenasch@fuse.net

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Gregory" <bruce@JOINCANADANOW.ORG>
To: <CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: A modern Passover Story

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0420.0712)]

It's all perception, no?

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

[From Bruce Gregory 92003.0420.0846)]

Paule Steichen wrote:

I meant that deep down in my heart, I know that God loves me and has created
me. Sure I have to do my part. I more and more want to do my part.

According to PCT, deep in your brain is the idea that there is a god who
loves you. You guard this perception with as much gain as I guard the
perception that there is real physical world. We both "know" these
things "deep in our hearts."

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0420.0908)]

Marc Abrams (2003.04.20.0832)

It depends on your working definition of "perception".

As the inputs to control circuits, considering that this CSGnet.

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0420.0940)]

  Marc Abrams (2003.04.20.0912)

What is in _your_ inputs?

Neural signals.

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

[From Kenny Kitzke (2003.04.20.1000EDT)]

<Rick Marken (2003.04.19.0940)>

<I’m sorry. I just can’t get excited about any religious celebration of the

“smiting of the first born”. I know we’re supposed to feel all regretful

about that. But it’s hard for me to digest even the best Jewish meal after

celebrating a god that can’t think of some better way to “let his people go”

(why did he let them be enslaved in the first place?) than by killing

innocent people’s children.>

I’m sorry too that you can’t get excited about Passover. I had a great uplifting Passover. One man who joined us, who had been celebrating Passover for over 30 years, said “This was the best Passover ever for me.” And, he even washed my feet!

And, what a superb, digestible supper Patsy prepared. Some of the most tasty lamb I ever had with wonderful garlic sauce with some parsley for a hint of bitter. Why, it was as good as my favorite steak with A-1! Plus unleavened bread as a nice change of pace from that puffy stuff and wonderful natural wine organically grown from the purest fruit of the vine. A wonderful Merlot produced at Bonterra Vineyards in Mendocino County (which I assume is in your home state of California).

I wish you could have joined us. Not only a great meal, fine fellowship, but a far better understanding of the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread than what you seem to comprehend.

Best of all was eating the body and blood of our Passover Lamb, the One who saves us from the death we certainly deserve.

Well, magnificent one, enjoy your “Enlightenment” while you can. And whine about this “god” who smites the first born. You hardly scratched the surface of just how dumb this “god” is compared to you. He even let His people whom he set free from bondage in Egypt die in the wilderness rather than enter His promised land (well except for Joshua and Caleb).

Yeah, if only there was a god who did what Rick perceives should be done and does it in a way Rick perceives is just. A god that would be smart, wise, loving and able to give people life instead of death. That really would be enlightening. Could you get excited about celebrating that?

BTW, I have been too busy celebrating Passover, attending prayer breakfasts, etc., to read your Rx error paper or respond to your last two posts on that. Your Passover post distracted and disturbed me enough to write I suppose.

I’m sorry, but I promise I will return to Rx errors and PCT. These enlightening things are clearly more important to you and able to get you very excited. I will try to accommodate your perceptions because I like you a lot–and it seems to me is more related to the purpose of this CSGNet.

From [ Marc Abrams (2003.04.20.0832) ]

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0420.0712)]

It's all perception, no?

It depends on your working definition of "perception". Are you defining
perceptions as initial sensory impressions only? If so, then iI would say
no to your comment. If you say perceptions are our sensory impressions plus
our given meanings to those impressions, then I would agree with you.

btw, Shalom Paul. I'm glad you find solace in your god. We should all be so
lucky.

Marc

···

At 07:12 AM 4/20/2003 -0400, you wrote:

From [ Marc Abrams (2003.04.20.0912)]

···

At 09:08 AM 4/20/2003 -0400, you wrote:

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0420.0908)]

As the inputs to control circuits, considering that this CSGnet.

What is in _your_ inputs? My inputs include memory/experience. That makes
my perceptions my "interpretation" of my sensory impressions, and of course
the world.

Marc

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0420.1228)]

Kenny Kitzke (2003.04.20.1000EDT)

Best of all was eating the body and blood of our Passover Lamb, the One
who saves us from the death we certainly deserve.

I think I understand why the God of the Hebrew Bible appeals to you so
much. Cannibalism made respectable.

···

--
Bruce Gregory lives with the poet and painter Gray Jacobik in the future
Canadian Province of New England.

www.joincanadanow.org

From [ Marc Abrams (2003.04.20.0950) ]

···

At 09:39 AM 4/20/2003 -0400, you wrote:

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.0420.0940)]

Neural signals.

Good. So are mine.

Marc

[From Rick Marken (2003.04.20.1015)]

Marc Abrams (2003.04.16.2327)

Rick Marken (2003.04.19.0940)

>I'm sorry. I just can't get excited about any religious celebration of the
>"smiting of the first born".

How touching. Was this some deep insight you got from PCT? ( I don't think so )

No. It's just the way I feel about terrorism, which is an approach to conflict
that involves trying to get one's way (such as gaining one's freedom) by murdering
innocent people en masse (such as by smiting first born children or crashing
planes into skyscrapers).

Friday was the 60th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. Do you know about
that Rick?

Of course. One of my cousins died in it.

Yes the same "God" that gave you that, gave you the
"slaying of the first born".

Yes, and it's the same god that let the Hebrews be enslaved in the first place.
And that commanded the genocide of the people living in Canaan. God (like the US)
can do pretty much whatever it wants. But that doesn't mean it always does the
right thing (from the point of view of some people). Might still does not make
right.

I believe in PCT,which says that it is people (not god(s)) who ultimately decide
what is right and what is wrong. And clearly they do. Otherwise, why would a
person like Bush, who presumably believes that Jesus is god, believe that it is
appropriate to invade Iraq rather than turn the other cheek when one is smote?
People seem to act in order to make their religious beliefs (perceptions) match
their needs (references) even though they often claim that it's the other way
around: that their religious beliefs determine their actions.

But interestingly enough it's also the same "god" that gave _you_ life.

Gee. I thought that was my Mom and Dad.

Who ever said "god" was a "benevolent" "entity". Do you really believe he's
Santa Claus?

I don't believe "he" (or the Easter Bunny -- more appropriate to the season)
exists. As far as who ever said god was benevolent, I think you should try reading
the Torah or New Testament. Lots of stuff in there about god being good.

I think that the belief in fictitious entities like god and the Easter Bunny can
be very rewarding for people on an individual basis (I've never seen my son
happier than when, as a skeptical 3 year old, he woke to find that the Easter
Bunny actually _had_ come and left colored eggs all over the house and yard). I
think problems arise when these beliefs become the basis for shared, controlled
system concepts. Some people may have developed reasonable bases for being
skeptical of those beliefs. Religious believers have shown an unpleasant
inclination to use brutal (as opposed to experimental) methods to convince
skeptics of the merits of their beliefs.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

Dear Rick:

I totally agree with the last paragraph. Notwithstanding the fact that human
love may be an illusion, as pointed some weeks ago.

I believe in civil rights.
I believe in heaven.

I came back from golf...wow...sure can't control that ball, or is it my
stroke...or my eyes...or my feet...or my brain...beats me

paule

Paule A. Steichen. Asch, Ph.D.
IBIS Int'l
Individual Building of Integrated Success
2101 Grandin Road
Cincinnati OH 45208
voicemail: (513) 289-5998
fax: (513) 871-soul/7685
pasteichenasch@fuse.net

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Marken" <marken@MINDREADINGS.COM>
To: <CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: A modern Passover Story

[From Rick Marken (2003.04.20.1015)]

> Marc Abrams (2003.04.16.2327)
>
> Rick Marken (2003.04.19.0940)
>
> >I'm sorry. I just can't get excited about any religious celebration of

the

> >"smiting of the first born".
>
> How touching. Was this some deep insight you got from PCT? ( I don't

think so )

No. It's just the way I feel about terrorism, which is an approach to

conflict

that involves trying to get one's way (such as gaining one's freedom) by

murdering

innocent people en masse (such as by smiting first born children or

crashing

planes into skyscrapers).

> Friday was the 60th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. Do you know

about

> that Rick?

Of course. One of my cousins died in it.

> Yes the same "God" that gave you that, gave you the
> "slaying of the first born".

Yes, and it's the same god that let the Hebrews be enslaved in the first

place.

And that commanded the genocide of the people living in Canaan. God (like

the US)

can do pretty much whatever it wants. But that doesn't mean it always does

the

right thing (from the point of view of some people). Might still does not

make

right.

I believe in PCT,which says that it is people (not god(s)) who ultimately

decide

what is right and what is wrong. And clearly they do. Otherwise, why would

a

person like Bush, who presumably believes that Jesus is god, believe that

it is

appropriate to invade Iraq rather than turn the other cheek when one is

smote?

People seem to act in order to make their religious beliefs (perceptions)

match

their needs (references) even though they often claim that it's the other

way

around: that their religious beliefs determine their actions.

> But interestingly enough it's also the same "god" that gave _you_ life.

Gee. I thought that was my Mom and Dad.

> Who ever said "god" was a "benevolent" "entity". Do you really believe

he's

> Santa Claus?

I don't believe "he" (or the Easter Bunny -- more appropriate to the

season)

exists. As far as who ever said god was benevolent, I think you should try

reading

the Torah or New Testament. Lots of stuff in there about god being good.

I think that the belief in fictitious entities like god and the Easter

Bunny can

be very rewarding for people on an individual basis (I've never seen my

son

happier than when, as a skeptical 3 year old, he woke to find that the

Easter

Bunny actually _had_ come and left colored eggs all over the house and

yard). I

think problems arise when these beliefs become the basis for shared,

controlled

system concepts. Some people may have developed reasonable bases for being
skeptical of those beliefs. Religious believers have shown an unpleasant
inclination to use brutal (as opposed to experimental) methods to convince
skeptics of the merits of their beliefs.

Best regards

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken
MindReadings.com
marken@mindreadings.com
310 474-0313

[From David Goldstein (2003.04.20.1430)]

[To: Rick and all the other CSG list mates who bothered to reply.]

Thank you.

I didn't really mean to stir a religious discussion. I was not
expressing any particular view about God.

I am in conflict about the war with Iraq and was expressing the conflict
by comparing the story of Passover with the war on Iraq (a parody?).

At first I thought that the email was ignored. Consistent with PCT, the
longer it takes a perception to be processed, the higher level stuff one
sees.

I think it is clear to all of us that many Iraqi people were killed and
tortured.

Then why did the Iraqi people not liberate themselves?

I guess if the dictator is well equipped, well manned and willing to do
whatever it takes to stay in power, it is hard for citizens to free
themselves.

It seems to me that the USA was operating like a person who is very
anxious and suspicious of others. Sometimes, a person in such a state
sees a possible danger and makes it a real danger. The bombing of the
Twin Towers and the killing of 3000 people was "the straw that broke the
camel's back." The message of the war against Iraq is: "Don't F with
us!!" The fact that the Iraqi people will have a new government and the
fact that the former Iraq may have had weapons of mass destruction are
explanations that we came up with to rationalize our actions. Revenge
was at work, it seems to me.

I hope that the USA will remove itself from Iraq as soon as possible.
The way we conduct ourselves in the next few years will tell the story
behind our true motivations.

Wha is "true" motivation? Talleyrand said that nations do not have feelings
just interest.

The Pople said the same thing than yo reg. Irak (no offense?). I take no
position as my dad that said without the US..kaput...

What I really really like is your expression "I am in conflict"...

I am just listening to CNN and the pilgrimage about that other Hussein that
1400 years ago reunited the sunis and shiites...and the fear of an
anti-american uprising.

We must admit that the same way I learned nothing almost about protestants
in my catholic school (as jewish as I am too) the same way we know nothing
about the muslims.

Ignorance breeds what now?

How should conflicts be solved?

Well, tell me, how could I improve on my golf game and memorizing the genome
(which was fully published last monday)?

Or do I have the memory of the human genome in my cells?

No punt of course..

except I so much wish I were a nobel prize or a saint or...just playing golf
better.

paule
Paule A. Steichen. Asch, Ph.D.
IBIS Int'l
Individual Building of Integrated Success
2101 Grandin Road
Cincinnati OH 45208
voicemail: (513) 289-5998
fax: (513) 871-soul/7685
pasteichenasch@fuse.net

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "David M. Goldstein" <davidmg@SNIP.NET>
To: <CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: A modern Passover Story

[From David Goldstein (2003.04.20.1430)]

[To: Rick and all the other CSG list mates who bothered to reply.]

Thank you.

I didn't really mean to stir a religious discussion. I was not
expressing any particular view about God.

I am in conflict about the war with Iraq and was expressing the conflict
by comparing the story of Passover with the war on Iraq (a parody?).

At first I thought that the email was ignored. Consistent with PCT, the
longer it takes a perception to be processed, the higher level stuff one
sees.

I think it is clear to all of us that many Iraqi people were killed and
tortured.

Then why did the Iraqi people not liberate themselves?

I guess if the dictator is well equipped, well manned and willing to do
whatever it takes to stay in power, it is hard for citizens to free
themselves.

It seems to me that the USA was operating like a person who is very
anxious and suspicious of others. Sometimes, a person in such a state
sees a possible danger and makes it a real danger. The bombing of the
Twin Towers and the killing of 3000 people was "the straw that broke the
camel's back." The message of the war against Iraq is: "Don't F with
us!!" The fact that the Iraqi people will have a new government and the
fact that the former Iraq may have had weapons of mass destruction are
explanations that we came up with to rationalize our actions. Revenge
was at work, it seems to me.

I hope that the USA will remove itself from Iraq as soon as possible.
The way we conduct ourselves in the next few years will tell the story
behind our true motivations.

Dear Dr. Goldstein:

Your honest post has followed me in my thoughts. I am watching the results
of cluster bombs on children on CNN as I write.
Vengeance?
I am in no position to judge for a variety of reasons, incl. the fact that
my father, who was a jew, fought against the germans as a doctor with the
french army, was made prisoner of war from 1939 to 45, and told me that
without the americans I would not have been born.
I refer you again to a book by Bernard-Henri L�vy, "La Puret� Dangereuse",
Paris: Grasset, 1994. In this remarkable book (I do not like as much some of
his more recent work) he alludes to the fact that we, humans, are marooned
into this universe. Some assume their nostalgy of truth (he refers possibly
to Viktor Frankl work) some take up vengeance. I refer to the pages 265
etc...
Maybe this reference, if not translated sorry -- may soothen some list
participants who say the same thing yet read others that what has been
intended?
Many of us are conflicted: Hence maybe the increase in emotional tone.
Tonight on Larry King live, we have Kushner and Choprah etc...
And from time to time, yes, popping up on the screen, the children with
bandages, almost dying in front of our eyes.
That too is in Luke (quoted by a list participant): Do not touch any of the
children...etc...
But then, I was a child too, not yet born but etc...

Well, maybe that all transcends perception control but then, so does life,
so do lives.

shalom

Paule A. Steichen. Asch, Ph.D.
IBIS Int'l
Individual Building of Integrated Success
2101 Grandin Road
Cincinnati OH 45208
voicemail: (513) 289-5998
fax: (513) 871-soul/7685
pasteichenasch@fuse.net

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "David M. Goldstein" <davidmg@SNIP.NET>
To: <CSGNET@listserv.uiuc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: A modern Passover Story

[From David Goldstein (2003.04.20.1430)]

[To: Rick and all the other CSG list mates who bothered to reply.]

Thank you.

I didn't really mean to stir a religious discussion. I was not
expressing any particular view about God.

I am in conflict about the war with Iraq and was expressing the conflict
by comparing the story of Passover with the war on Iraq (a parody?).

At first I thought that the email was ignored. Consistent with PCT, the
longer it takes a perception to be processed, the higher level stuff one
sees.

I think it is clear to all of us that many Iraqi people were killed and
tortured.

Then why did the Iraqi people not liberate themselves?

I guess if the dictator is well equipped, well manned and willing to do
whatever it takes to stay in power, it is hard for citizens to free
themselves.

It seems to me that the USA was operating like a person who is very
anxious and suspicious of others. Sometimes, a person in such a state
sees a possible danger and makes it a real danger. The bombing of the
Twin Towers and the killing of 3000 people was "the straw that broke the
camel's back." The message of the war against Iraq is: "Don't F with
us!!" The fact that the Iraqi people will have a new government and the
fact that the former Iraq may have had weapons of mass destruction are
explanations that we came up with to rationalize our actions. Revenge
was at work, it seems to me.

I hope that the USA will remove itself from Iraq as soon as possible.
The way we conduct ourselves in the next few years will tell the story
behind our true motivations.