About that Symposium in Chicago

[From Dick Robertson. 2009.05.09.1648CDT]

Since no one else seems interested in that symposium I think I’ll try to offer something myself. I means an opportunity to present a PCT view to one more audience of psychology students for whatever it might be worth.

I could sure use some ideas, both from the business guys, Kenny, Fred and Dag – about what PCT might have to contribute to financial decisions making, and from Bill and Rick about what to say about PCT and economic theorizing.

My first idea for a paper title is: What does a “control of perception” approach have to offer the study of decision-making under conditions of uncertainty. Any HELP?

Best,

Dick R

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Powers powers_w@FRONTIER.NET
Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009 3:43 pm
Subject: Re: Loop gain moduation in Aplysia
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

[From Bill Powers (2009.05.09.1419 MDT)]

Bruce Abbott (2009.05.09.1610 EDT) –

BP: Very nice analysis, Bruce. I’d always meant to sit down with
an
Aplysia circuit diagram and figure that out, but you beat me to it.

BA: Eric Kandel and his colleagues used the sea hare, Aplysia
(a
marine slug) to study the mechanisms involved in habituation of
the
animal’s gill-withdrawal reflex. Squirting a jet of water over
Aplysia’s siphon or mantel area causes muscles in the mantle
area to
contract, thus covering the delicate gills. If there is
no further
stimulation, these muscles soon relax, uncovering the
gills. However, repeated applications of the jet soon
lead to
habituation of the reflex: Aplysia “ignores” the sensation and
the
mantle does not constrict.

BA: From a control-system perspective, it seems to me that
habituation of the gill-withdrawal reflex reflects a temporary
reduction in the output gain of the system. As habituation
proceeds,
it takes stronger stimulation of the sensory neurons to produce
a
given amount of output from the motor neurons, and thus a given
degree of mantle contraction.

BP: It’s also possible that the input threshold or the reference
level changes. This appears to be a one-way control system; only
perceptual signals above the threshold produce an error signal,
and
the gain is high enough to make the output simply turn on and
off
(though I’d like to experiment with small changes in stimulation
to
see what the transition really looks like). I don’t suppose
there is
an actual neural reference signal (it would be inhibitory), but
anything biochemical that biases the zero-point will serve as one.

Other system gains appear to remain unaffected, so loop
gain
decreases in proportion to the output gain.

How’s that? If the system gains have been measured, that would
probably settle the question of whether an effective change of
reference signal is involved. That would not alter the loop gain
if
the comparator is approximately linear.

If this analysis is correct, then habituation of Aplysia’s
gill-withdrawal reflex (and perhaps habituation of many other
types
of reflex action) provides a clear example of a targeted
“reorganization” involving an alteration of system gain rather
than
a reorganization of system organization.

Yes, nice. That would be like changing the weights as in
ArmReorg if
it’s really gain that decreases. But in this simple a creature,
with
no blood-brain barrier to make things neater, there might be
little
difference between neural functions and neurochemical functions.
They’re all neurochemical in the final analysis, anyway. If we
knew
how the threshold is established, we could measure it or
whatever it
depends on and probably see it change. By “we” I mean one of
those
incredibly smart microbiochemists.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2009.05.09.1840)]

Dick Robertson. 2009.05.09.1648CDT]

Since no one else seems interested in that symposium I think I'll try to
offer something myself. I means an opportunity to present a PCT view to one
more audience of psychology students for whatever it might be worth.

Sorry, I am interested; I just don't think I could do it; too many
other projects; still trying to make a living; etc.

I could sure use some ideas, both from the business guys, Kenny, Fred and
Dag -- about what PCT might have to contribute to financial decisions
making, and from Bill and Rick about what to say about PCT and economic
theorizing.

My first idea for a paper title is: What does a "control of perception"
approach have to offer the study of decision-making under conditions of
uncertainty.� Any HELP?

Sounds great to me; in PCT decision making is the experience one has
when in conflict, right (should I do A or B when doing either on will
be disappointing, because I didn't do the other)? So any person
involved in decision making is probably in conflict, which has to be
kind of stressful. Maybe you could discuss MOL as an approach to
identifying and resolving the conflicts that are the basis of
"decision making".

Best

Rick

···

From: Bill Powers <powers_w@FRONTIER.NET>
Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009 3:43 pm
Subject: Re: Loop gain moduation in Aplysia
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

[From Bill Powers (2009.05.09.1419 MDT)]

Bruce Abbott (2009.05.09.1610 EDT) --

BP: Very nice analysis, Bruce. I'd always meant to sit down with
an
Aplysia circuit diagram and figure that out, but you beat me to it.

>BA: Eric Kandel and his colleagues used the sea hare, Aplysia
(a
>marine slug) to study the mechanisms involved in habituation of
the
>animal's gill-withdrawal reflex. Squirting a jet of water over
>Aplysia's siphon or mantel area causes muscles in the mantle
area to
>contract, thus covering the delicate gills.� If there is
no further
>stimulation, these muscles soon relax, uncovering the
>gills.� However, repeated applications of the jet soon
lead to
>habituation of the reflex: Aplysia "ignores" the sensation and
the
>mantle does not constrict.

...

>BA: From a control-system perspective, it seems to me that
>habituation of the gill-withdrawal reflex reflects a temporary
>reduction in the output gain of the system. As habituation
proceeds,
>it takes stronger stimulation of the sensory neurons to produce
a
>given amount of output from the motor neurons, and thus a given
>degree of mantle contraction.

BP: It's also possible that the input threshold or the reference
level changes. This appears to be a one-way control system; only
perceptual signals above the threshold produce an error signal,
and
the gain is high enough to make the output simply turn on and
off
(though I'd like to experiment with small changes in stimulation
to
see what the transition really looks like). I don't suppose
there is
an actual neural reference signal (it would be inhibitory), but
anything biochemical that biases the zero-point will serve as one.

>� Other system gains appear to remain unaffected, so loop
gain
> decreases in proportion to the output gain.

How's that? If the system gains have been measured, that would
probably settle the question of whether an effective change of
reference signal is involved. That would not alter the loop gain
if
the comparator is approximately linear.

>If this analysis is correct, then habituation of Aplysia's
>gill-withdrawal reflex (and perhaps habituation of many other
types
>of reflex action) provides a clear example of a targeted
>"reorganization" involving an alteration of system gain rather
than
>a reorganization of system organization.

Yes, nice. That would be like changing the weights as in
ArmReorg if
it's really gain that decreases. But in this simple a creature,
with
no blood-brain barrier to make things neater, there might be
little
difference between neural functions and neurochemical functions.
They're all neurochemical in the final analysis, anyway. If we
knew
how the threshold is established,� we could measure it or
whatever it
depends on and probably see it change. By "we" I mean one of
those
incredibly smart microbiochemists.

Best,

Bill P.

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com

[From Dick Robertson,2009.05.10.1450CDT]

Thanks for the suggestion Rick, I’ll probably be back for more, if this paper materializes and gets accepted.

Best,

Dick R

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Marken rsmarken@GMAIL.COM
Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009 8:45 pm
Subject: Re: About that Symposium in Chicago
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

[From Rick Marken (2009.05.09.1840)]

Dick Robertson. 2009.05.09.1648CDT]

Since no one else seems interested in that symposium I think
I’ll try to
offer something myself. I means an opportunity to present a
PCT view to one
more audience of psychology students for whatever it might be worth.

Sorry, I am interested; I just don’t think I could do it; too many
other projects; still trying to make a living; etc.

I could sure use some ideas, both from the business guys,
Kenny, Fred and
Dag – about what PCT might have to contribute to financial
making, and from Bill and Rick about what to say
about PCT and economic
theorizing.

My first idea for a paper title is: What does a “control of
perception”> approach have to offer the study of decision-making
under conditions of
uncertainty. Any HELP?

Sounds great to me; in PCT decision making is the experience one has
when in conflict, right (should I do A or B when doing either on will
be disappointing, because I didn’t do the other)? So any person
involved in decision making is probably in conflict, which has
to be
kind of stressful. Maybe you could discuss MOL as an
approach to
identifying and resolving the conflicts that are the basis of
“decision making”.

Best

Rick

From: Bill Powers powers_w@FRONTIER.NET
Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009 3:43 pm
Subject: Re: Loop gain moduation in Aplysia
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

[From Bill Powers (2009.05.09.1419 MDT)]

Bruce Abbott (2009.05.09.1610 EDT) –

BP: Very nice analysis, Bruce. I’d always meant to sit down with
an
Aplysia circuit diagram and figure that out, but you beat me
to it.

BA: Eric Kandel and his colleagues used the sea hare, Aplysia
(a
marine slug) to study the mechanisms involved in habituation of
the
animal’s gill-withdrawal reflex. Squirting a jet of water over
Aplysia’s siphon or mantel area causes muscles in the mantle
area to
contract, thus covering the delicate gills. If there is
no further
stimulation, these muscles soon relax, uncovering the
gills. However, repeated applications of the jet soon
lead to
habituation of the reflex: Aplysia “ignores” the sensation and
the
mantle does not constrict.

BA: From a control-system perspective, it seems to me that
habituation of the gill-withdrawal reflex reflects a temporary
reduction in the output gain of the system. As habituation
proceeds,
it takes stronger stimulation of the sensory neurons to produce
a
given amount of output from the motor neurons, and thus a given
degree of mantle contraction.

BP: It’s also possible that the input threshold or the reference
level changes. This appears to be a one-way control system; only
perceptual signals above the threshold produce an error signal,
and
the gain is high enough to make the output simply turn on and
off
(though I’d like to experiment with small changes in stimulation
to
see what the transition really looks like). I don’t suppose
there is
an actual neural reference signal (it would be inhibitory), but
anything biochemical that biases the zero-point will serve as one.

Other system gains appear to remain unaffected, so loop
gain
decreases in proportion to the output gain.

How’s that? If the system gains have been measured, that would
probably settle the question of whether an effective change of
reference signal is involved. That would not alter the loop gain
if
the comparator is approximately linear.

If this analysis is correct, then habituation of Aplysia’s
gill-withdrawal reflex (and perhaps habituation of many other
types
of reflex action) provides a clear example of a targeted
“reorganization” involving an alteration of system gain rather
than
a reorganization of system organization.

Yes, nice. That would be like changing the weights as in
ArmReorg if
it’s really gain that decreases. But in this simple a creature,
with
no blood-brain barrier to make things neater, there might be
little
difference between neural functions and neurochemical functions.
They’re all neurochemical in the final analysis, anyway. If we
knew
how the threshold is established, we could measure it or
whatever it
depends on and probably see it change. By “we” I mean one of
those
incredibly smart microbiochemists.

Best,

Bill P.


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com