actions and beliefs

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.02.04.1720 UT)]

[From Rick Marken (2010.02.04.0910)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.02.04.1227 UT)–

BG: This is what I call an implicit belief. Implicit beliefs are subject to
change when new evidence emerges (I believed it was safe to walk across the
floor, but they it gave way under my weight).

I don’t see how your “implicit belief” differs from an “explicit
belief”. The belief about the safety of the floor is an imagined
perception, just like any other belief. Presumably you developed this
belief because there was some question about the safety of the floor.
The belief about the floor may have been based on evidence (a
structural analysis) or other imaginations. But when you actually went
to walk across the floor, the floor failed. This might lead you to
give up your belief in the safety of the floor; but maybe not. People
have been known to maintain their beliefs in the face of contrary
evidence;-) I know people who could fall through a floor they
believed was safe and blame it on Bill Clinton;-)

I only make the distinction because we act as though we believe things without ever giving attention to them. I may never have thought about the potential dangers lurking behind the closet door, but I act as though I believe it is safe to open the door. Maybe expectations is a better word than beliefs. They do play a role in the ways we go about reaching our goals.

Bruce

[From Bill Powers (2010.02.04.08545 MST)]

Martin Taylor 2010.02.03.23.45 –

I have a different take on it
than Bill does. I would turn your question around and ask “What is
the mechanism by which I decide that this pattern of light and dark
patches is a lawn chair”. Can you simply decide to perceive that
pattern as a lawn chair? If, as I argue, a belief is a perception of a
relationship, then it is legitimate to ask by what mechanism it is
created, but I would not usually anticipate that one “decides”
to have a particular perception.

The difference between the case you propose and mine is that in your
case, you already know what “lawn chair” means and how such a
chair looks, and are simply pattern-matching on the basis of
attributes.
As I use the term belief in ordinary conversation, the object of the
belief is a proposition of some sort, and belief is one of several
words used to indicate the degree to which I think the proposition is
true. If someone asks me, “Is the next meeting of the CSG going to
be in July again?” I might reply, “I believe so, but let me
check.” Saying “I believe so” indicates that I have some
sense that the meeting will be in July, but “let me check”
indicates that I don’t know if that is true. This is how those
words, believe and know, were used in my family as I grew up, and how I
have always used them. To me, belief implies a high degree of
uncertainty, while knowing indicates a low degree.

So yes, I guess I can perceive degrees of being uncertain about
something. But I don’t perceive uncertainty in anything but
myself.

You say that to you, belief is a perception of a relationship. A
relationship between what and what? A relationship requires at
least two elements. You say a belief IS a relationship perception , so
right away I have a problem because to me, a belief IS a perception of an
evaluation of a proposition, and “belief” is a word indicating
that perception. Since I can’t find any perception that seems to fit your
definition, I’m stuck.

In the case of deciding to
perceive the object as a lawn chair, it is quite possible one would go
through a process of saying to oneself “It seems to be made of wood,
it seems to have a flat part on which one could sit, so it’s a chair. Now
what kind of chair is it? It looks too big and crudely made for a living
room, and it looks as though it would withstand some rain, so I decide to
perceive it as a lawn chair”. But I don’t think you very often
“decide” to perceive something as this or that, whether at the
category level of the example, or at any other level.

I think that normally we learn to perceive things; “deciding”
how to perceive something, as in your example above, implies that there
are alternate ways of perceiving it and we can’t use more than one at the
same time (as in most people’s deciding which way to perceive a Necker
Cube – “most” because I remember your saying you could see
both at once). After we have learned to perceive something, we learn what
it is called in our native language, and perhaps in some other language,
too. It seems to me that most people don’t see much difference between a
perception and the name of a perception, but ever since high school when
I came across Korzybski that difference has been clear, though not always
kept in mind. The word is not that to which it refers. We’re having
something like that problem with belief and “belief.”

I don’t think Bruce G’s lawn chair example is a case where we have to
decide anything. Seeing oneself as a lawn chair is a matter of intention
and bringing the intention into being as a perception. That doesn’t
involve any decision unless one also has some reason not to want to see
oneself as a lawn chair, or also wants to see oneself as a lawn
mower.

Mark 9:24, Google tells me, ends with the phrase, “Lord, I believe;
help my unbelief!” (that’s probably a modern version; I remembered
“help me in mine unbelief”)

That is what making a decision is like. I believe (for one set of
reasons) and I don’t believe (for different reasons). It’s a conflict.
Resolving the conflict means picking just one of the alternatives at a
time; chocolate today, vanilla tomorrow, or only chocolate from now on.
That normally requires reorganization to achieve, I believe. If
experiencing oneself as a lawn chair will reduce some large serious
error, then one will probably reorganize enough to feel like a lawn
chair. It’s not a matter of logic. I don’t think it’s very likely to
happen, however, because the conflicts with all one’s other perceptions
would be too numerous to ignore. Especially when one tried to fold up
like a lawn chair.

The decision is easier to make when the perception in question doesn’t
conflict seriously with other perceptions. I met a person once who
assured me that he was God. I think he believed that – or if he used my
terminology, he would have said he knew it was true. He also informed me,
before I could ask, that God didn’t stoop to doing miracles just to prove
who he was.

So, can you, Bruce Gregory,
decide to believe that you are a lawn chair,

meaning that you have no notion that it might not be
so?

Bruce argues on your side; I’m the one arguing that one could conceivably
come to perceive being a lawn chair (though of course we are really
talking about some less unlikely kind of belief).

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2010.02.04.0950)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.02.04.1720 UT)

Rick Marken (2010.02.04.0910)--

I don't see how your "implicit belief" differs from an "explicit
belief".

I only make the distinction because we act as though we believe things
without ever giving attention to them. I may never have thought about the
potential dangers lurking behind the closet door, but I act as though I
believe it is safe to open the door. Maybe expectations is a better word
than beliefs. They do play a role in the ways we go about reaching our
goals.

All the modeling and research I have done suggests that what you call
"implicit beliefs" or "expectations" play no role at all in the ways
we go about reaching our goals. I agree that it often looks like
people are behaving on the basis of expectations. For example, a
fielder catching a fly ball appears to expect the ball to move in a
particular trajectory; the fielder then seems to intercept the ball by
anticipating where it will fall. In fact, the fielder is not expecting
anything, just controlling optical variables (see
Baseball Catch). Another
apparent case of expectation playing a role in behavior can be seen in
my "Levels of control" demo
(Levels of Control) where it looks
like the controller expects a certain relationship between mouse and
cursor movements; this expectation is most obvious when the
relationship between mouse and cursor movement is suddenly reversed;
the subject keeps moving the mouse in a way that assumes the "old"
relationship, even though it makes control worse. In fact, the
apparent expected realtionship between mouse and cursor is embedded in
the output function of the controller, as evidenced by the nearly
perfect fit of the control model (with no expectation built in) to the
subject's behavior.

I think expectations (which, again, are imagined perceptions) do play
a role in behavior, but mainly at the highest levels of control. And
even then I think expectations are the "thinking" and "planning"
(control of imagined perceptions) that goes on in one's head before
any actual control of perception occurs.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2010.02.04.1045 MST)]

Another idea about believing and knowing just popped up. I think we say "know" when the proposition is a description of something that has already happened or is happening now, and "believe" when the proposition refers to something we haven't experienced yet. So "knowing" refers to present-time or remembered sense-based perceptions, while "believing" refers to imagined perceptions.

If you walk across a floor that you believe is strong enough to hold you, and it collapses, you can then say you know it was not strong enough to hold you.

Can anyone come up with examples counter to that proposal?

Old joke: do you believe that people tell lies? "Believe it? Hell, I've seen it done."

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory 92010.02.04.1810 UT)]

[From Rick Marken (2010.02.04.0950)]

All the modeling and research I have done suggests that what you call
“implicit beliefs” or “expectations” play no role at all in the ways
we go about reaching our goals.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that expectations can be modeled as control functions. I suspect this is true. For example, there is no need to postulate that a thermostat expects the room to get warmer when it turns the furnace on. However, it is true that we expect the room to get warmer when we set the thermostat higher. Can we say that PCT has no need to account for such expectations?

Bruce

[Martin Taylor 2010.02.04.13.12]

[From Bill Powers (2010.02.04.08545 MST)]

Martin Taylor 2010.02.03.23.45 –

You say that to you, belief is a perception of a relationship. A
relationship between what and what? A relationship requires at
least two elements. You say a belief IS a relationship perception , so
right away I have a problem because to me, a belief IS a perception of
an
evaluation of a proposition, and “belief” is a word indicating
that perception. Since I can’t find any perception that seems to fit
your
definition, I’m stuck.

I refer you to
[Martin Taylor 2010.02.03.16.43], but to save you looking back in the
thread, I quote the relevant section.

···

As I understand the word, “belief” is always about something. It is
itself a perception, but it is a perception of the likelihood that some
other perception actually corresponds to soemthing else, usually a
state of the unknowable “real world”. The word “about” suggests we are
talking of some kind of relationship, though not at the low level
usually taken to represent relationship perceptions, since what the
belief is “about” may be a very high-level perception.

I think of two kinds of relationship: “Belief that X is true” and
“Belief in X”. The latter is more difficult to pin down, since is it
more wisely and vaguely applied. Often, “I believe in X” is used when X
represents the abilities or trustworthiness of some person real or
imaginary. It might also be used when X represents the real-world
existence of someone, but usually not of something. “I believe in
Barack Obama” means that I think him likely to be doing the right
things to bring about a state I would like to see, whereas “I believe
in Beelzebub” means I believe the truth of the statement ‘Beelzebub
exists in the real world’".

When one uses “Belief that X is true” in the sense of Bruce’s question:
“Don’t you always ‘believe’ that the action you take will bring you
closer to your goal”, one is talking about control in imagination. The
belief perception is a perception of the imagined result of the
proposed action. It is part of planning. The belief is about the
unknowable real-world environmental feedback path. And the short answer
to Bruce’s question in this context is “I don’t know, but it might be
worth a try if I can’t think of anything better”.


So the answer to your question “a relationship between what and what”
is usually “between a perception and an unknowable but imagined
corresponding state of the real world”.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2010.02.04.1030)]

Bruce Gregory 92010.02.04.1810 UT)--

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that expectations can be
modeled as control functions.

Not quite. I'm saying that some controlling "looks like" it involves
expectations when it actually doesn't.

I suspect this is true. For example, there is
no need to postulate that a thermostat expects the room to get warmer when
it turns the furnace on.

Right! One could look at the thermostat's behavior and read
"expectation" into it. But, in fact, there is no "expectation" (in the
form of imagined effects of actions on the controlled variable)
involved in the actual mechanism of thermostatic control.

However, it is true that we expect the room to get
warmer when we set the thermostat higher.

I think expectation isn't even involved in that case. I turn the
thermostat up as one of my means of controlling for being comfortable.
I don't expect the thermostat to work -- that is, I don't imagine the
room heating up after I turn up the thermostat -- though, I suppose,
in some circumstances, I might do that. But usually, I just control
for comfort using the thermostat setting in the same way as I control
the position of a cursor using mouse movement; I just do it.

Can we say that PCT has no need to account for such expectations?

Not at all. Expectations are a real mental phenomenon and PCT should
explain them. I think it does explain them as imaginations (see Ch 15,
particularly pp. 222-224 in B:CP, 2nd edition). The model on those
pages seems to capture my experience of expecting, believing, etc.
It's something I so a lot of before I collect data;-)

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.02.041845 UT)]

[From Rick Marken (2010.02.04.1030)]

BG: However, it is true that we expect the room to get
warmer when we set the thermostat higher.

RM: I think expectation isn’t even involved in that case. I turn the
thermostat up as one of my means of controlling for being comfortable.
I don’t expect the thermostat to work – that is, I don’t imagine the
room heating up after I turn up the thermostat – though, I suppose,
in some circumstances, I might do that. But usually, I just control
for comfort using the thermostat setting in the same way as I control
the position of a cursor using mouse movement; I just do it.

BG: On the other hand, if someone asked me, “Why did Rick turn up the thermostat?” I might answer, “He doesn’t know it is not working, so he expects the room will get warmer.” It might be that expectations are devices we use to explain the behavior of others, and, by analogy, to explain our own behavior when, in fact, we just do it.

Bruce

[From Bill Powers (2010.02.04.1138 MST)]

Martin Taylor 2010.02.04.13.12 –

I refer you to [Martin Taylor
2010.02.03.16.43], but to save you looking back in the thread, I quote
the relevant section.


So the answer to your question “a relationship between what and
what” is usually “between a perception and an unknowable but
imagined corresponding state of the real world”.

Sorry, for some reason that section didn’t stick consciously, but it may
have hung about anyway because your last statement may account for the
idea that just “popped up” in my head. An imagined state
of the real world may be the critical factor here. We believe what we can
only imagine (but, often, prefer to be true); we know what we perceive,
whether we like it or not.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2010.02.04.1120)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.02.041845 UT)--

BG: On the other hand, if someone asked me, "Why did Rick turn up the
thermostat?" I might answer, "He doesn't know it is not working, so he
expects the room will get warmer." It might be that expectations are devices
we use to explain the behavior of others, and, by analogy, to explain our
own behavior when, in fact, we just do it.

Yes, that is certainly one thing we do with expectations; we use them
as explanations of behavior, our own and that of others. But
expectations are real and I think they do have a role in behavior. For
example, I expect certain candidates to do a better job in office than
others; this expectation leads me to control for voting for one
candidate rather than another. So expectations certainly influence
some of my controlling. My problem with using expectation as an
explanation of behavior is that it seems to me that it is used way too
often to explain behavior in which no expectation is involved at all,
which is probably most of our everyday controlling. From a scientific
point of view I would say that expectation should be part of an
explanation of some behavior only if it must be included in a model in
order to account for the behavior. As I said before, so far, in all
the research and modeling work I have done, I have had no need to
incorporate any kind of "expectation" into a model in order for it to
successfully account for the observed behavior.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Yes. At least “Yes” if I interpret you correctly. Let me paraphrase
what I think you said, to be sure what I am agreeing to.

  1. We believe there is a real world out there, that we cannot know.
    That’s a proposition about the real world, which, if pursued, might
    lead to analyses worthy of Gödel or Hofstadter, so I won’t pursue it.

  2. We perceive something, at some level of perception. No question,
    that IS what we perceive.

  3. We imagine that in the real world there is a particular state
    corresponding to that perception. The “state” may be a complicated set
    of dynamically interacting effects, corresponding to a high-level
    perception such as my perception of our politicians’ commitment to
    democracy, or it may be a very low-level thing such as the redness of a
    chair.

  4. We perceive a relationship between 2 and 3, which is a perception of
    something we might call “assurance that 3 is actually the source of 2”
    or “belief that 3 is true”. The value (closeness?) of that relationship
    is the degree of belief in the proposition.

Is that more or less the same as what you meant?

I want to add one more element that I did not include earlier, which is
that for any given perception (2, above), there may be many different
simultaneously imagined states of the world (3, above), for all of
which one may have a level of belief that this state is true of the
real world.

Incidentally, I would not really agree with “we know what we perceive”,
because “know” and “believe” seem to have something to do with
perceptions made conscious, and most of our perceptions are not. Do we
“know” all those muscle tension perceptions we control in doing almost
anything? I would not use the word in that context. I can interpret “we
know what we perceive” as being identical to “this perception is in my
field of conscious awareness”, or something like that.

FYA, here’s Lewis Carroll’s take on the matter. Alice is talking with
the White Queen.

···

On 2010/02/4 1:46 PM, Bill Powers wrote:

[From Bill Powers (2010.02.04.1138 MST)]

Martin Taylor 2010.02.04.13.12 –

I refer you to [Martin
Taylor
2010.02.03.16.43], but to save you looking back in the thread, I quote
the relevant section.


So the answer to your question “a relationship between what and
what” is usually “between a perception and an unknowable but
imagined corresponding state of the real world”.

Sorry, for some reason that section didn’t stick consciously, but it
may
have hung about anyway because your last statement may account for the
idea that just “popped up” in my head. An imagined state
of the real world may be the critical factor here. We believe what we
can
only imagine (but, often, prefer to be true); we know what we perceive,
whether we like it or not.

==========

Queen: “… Now I’ll give you something to believe. I’m just one
hundred and one, five months and a day.”

“I can’t believe that1” said Alice.

“Can’t you?” the Queen said in a pitying tome. “Try again: draw a long
breath, and shut your eyes.”

Alice laughed. “There’s no use trying,” she said. " one can’t believe
impossible things."

“I daresay you haven’t had much practice.” said the Queen. “When I was
your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. why, sometimes I’ve
believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”

===========

So, the White Queen can control her belief perceptions but Alice can’t.
Can we in real life? I think not.

Martin

[From Rick Marken (2010.02.04.1220)]

···

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Martin Taylor <mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net> wrote:

So, the White Queen can control her belief perceptions but Alice can't. Can
we in real life? I think not.

I'm with the White Queen on this one. I too can believe any number of
things at will, before and after breakfast. It's really quite easy
and, I think, the basis of great storytelling (and story enjoyment;
willing suspension of disbelief, remember).

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Abbott (2010.02.04.1535 EST)]

Rick Marken (2010.02.04.1120) --

Bruce Gregory (2010.02.041845 UT)--

BG: On the other hand, if someone asked me, "Why did Rick turn up the
thermostat?" I might answer, "He doesn't know it is not working, so he
expects the room will get warmer." It might be that expectations are

devices

we use to explain the behavior of others, and, by analogy, to explain our
own behavior when, in fact, we just do it.

RM: Yes, that is certainly one thing we do with expectations; we use them
as explanations of behavior, our own and that of others. But
expectations are real and I think they do have a role in behavior. For
example, I expect certain candidates to do a better job in office than
others; this expectation leads me to control for voting for one
candidate rather than another. So expectations certainly influence
some of my controlling. My problem with using expectation as an
explanation of behavior is that it seems to me that it is used way too
often to explain behavior in which no expectation is involved at all,
which is probably most of our everyday controlling. From a scientific
point of view I would say that expectation should be part of an
explanation of some behavior only if it must be included in a model in
order to account for the behavior. As I said before, so far, in all
the research and modeling work I have done, I have had no need to
incorporate any kind of "expectation" into a model in order for it to
successfully account for the observed behavior.

Careful, Rick: You're starting to sound like a Skinnerian! Skinner would
have said that the rat presses the lever, not because it expects food
thereby to be delivered, but because food delivery has followed its
lever-presses in the past. Tolman would disagree, asserting that the rat had
learned a means-end expectation for reaching a goal. Now, wanting food, it
presses the lever.

The reason your models work so well without expectation is that the
environmental consequence of the control system's actions (its
negative-feedback relation to the controlled variable) is already built into
the model. The model behaves "as if" it "believed" that moving the cursor in
a given direction would reduce the error between cursor position and
reference. But of course it doesn't "believe" anything; it just acts as it
was made to act. The thermostat provides another example.

So what would distinguish a system that developed expectations from one that
did not? Perhaps a crucial test would be to observe what the system did if
the expectation were violated. If you suddenly reversed the relationship
between mouse and cursor movements, a system without an expectation would
simply continue to act as it did before, and control would simply fail. A
system that "expected" the cursor to move as before (based on previous
experience) would find its expectation violated and presumably take action
to sort out the problem.

Although this seems like a simple enough test for expectation, one might
have difficulty distinguishing between true expectation and reorganization.
As in the case of expectancy, in reorganization the violation of the usual
relation between mouse movement and cursor movement would bring about a
change in the system's organization; if successful, reorganization would
restore the negative feedback relation and control over the CV would
recover.

I do like the notion that we usually behave without explicit expectation. If
you hold out your coffee cup for me to refill from the pot I'm holding, I'm
likely to get steamed if you suddenly jerk the cup away just as the coffee
comes pouring out the of spout and consequently ends up on the floor. I
might tell you that I expected you to hold the cup still while I was doing
the pouring, but of course there probably was nothing of the sort going on
in my mind at the time. It's just that, after the incident, I realize that
this expectation was implicit in my behavior. It's not so much that I
expected you to hold the cup still as that I didn't expect you to move it.
The absence of an expectation is not an expectation.

Expectation may be a high-level process involved in planning actions,
drawing on means-end relations learned during previous experience, worked
out logically, or perhaps communicated to us by others. ("You want to get to
the bank? Take Third Street to Maple and turn left." You then follow those
directions because you expect that they will take you to the bank.)
Expectation seems less likely to be involved in habitual activities,
although then we do behave "as if" we had them.

Bruce A.

[Martin Taylor 2010.02.04.17.10]

[From Rick Marken (2010.02.04.1220)]

So, the White Queen can control her belief perceptions but Alice can't. Can
we in real life? I think not.
     

I'm with the White Queen on this one. I too can believe any number of
things at will, before and after breakfast. It's really quite easy
and, I think, the basis of great storytelling (and story enjoyment;
willing suspension of disbelief, remember).

Yes, but when you do "suspend disbelief" do you really believe that the story is true of the real world? Or are you just accepting that within the imaginary world conjured up by the storyteller these things would be true -- if that imaginary world were (as you do not believe to be the case) the real world?

In other words, when you "suspend disbelief", do you truly believe that what is in the story is about the real world? Can you control your belief to make it so?

Martin

···

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Martin Taylor<mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net> wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2010.02.04.1510)]

Martin Taylor (2010.02.04.17.10)--

Yes, but when you do "suspend disbelief" do you really believe that the story is true
of the real world?

Yes. I believe -- to coin a phrase -- that there is only one kind of
belief, the real kind;-)

Or are you just accepting that within the
imaginary world conjured up by the storyteller these things would be true --
if that imaginary world were (as you do not believe to be the case) the real
world?

When I am involved in a story, I experience it as though it is really
happening. I experience the emotions that I would experience in the
"true" situation. While the story is happening it is true for me (if
it's a great story, like anything written by Jane Austen). When I
read, say, "Pride and Prejudice", I believe, I really do believe. (and
I worry about the fact that I'm so find of Mr. Darcy;-)

In other words, when you "suspend disbelief", do you truly believe that what
is in the story is about the real world?

Just as much as I believe that what is happening in the real world
(the world of my perceptual experience) is about the real world (real
reality, the existence of which is, of course, just a hypothesis).

Can you control your belief to make it so?

I don't know what you're asking about here.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2010.02.04.1625 MST)]

MT: 1. We believe there is a
real world out there, that we cannot know. That’s a proposition about the
real world, which, if pursued, might lead to analyses worthy of Gödel or
Hofstadter, so I won’t pursue it.

BP: I give more weight to the hypothesis that there is a real world out
there than I give to any particular claim about exactly what is out
there.

MT: 2. We perceive something, at
some level of perception. No question, that IS what we perceive.

  1. We imagine that in the real world there is a particular state
    corresponding to that perception. The “state” may be a
    complicated set of dynamically interacting effects, corresponding to a
    high-level perception such as my perception of our politicians’
    commitment to democracy, or it may be a very low-level thing such as the
    redness of a chair.

BP: So far the “real state” that I imagine is pretty much what
the harder sciences claim is there, except for the simpler lower-level
stuff that just sort of is. If I can sit in the chair and read, I
don’t much care if the chair and the newspaper are actually, truly,
really the way I perceive them.

MT: 4. We perceive a
relationship between 2 and 3, which is a perception of something we might
call “assurance that 3 is actually the source of 2” or
“belief that 3 is true”. The value (closeness?) of that
relationship is the degree of belief in the
proposition.

Is that more or less the same as
what you meant?

BP: I’d say it’s pretty close, although I can express my position without
using the term “believe.”

MT: I want to add one more
element that I did not include earlier, which is that for any given
perception (2, above), there may be many different simultaneously
imagined states of the world (3, above), for all of which one may have a
level of belief that this state is true of the real
world.

BP: I can agree with that, too. At any given time, I may have several
hypotheses in mind about external counterparts of a perception,
especially when I haven’t been able to think of any way to choose one
over the others.

MT: Incidentally, I would not
really agree with “we know what we perceive”, because
“know” and “believe” seem to have something to do
with perceptions made conscious, and most of our perceptions are not. Do
we “know” all those muscle tension perceptions we control in
doing almost anything? I would not use the word in that context. I can
interpret “we know what we perceive” as being identical to
“this perception is in my field of conscious awareness”, or
something like that.

BP: Agreed: what we call belief and knowing is connect with conscious
experience. Neither term is needed in discussing the way the nervous
system is imagined to function. A perceptual input function just produces
a perceptual signals according to the way it’s organized internally and
the pattern or behavior of the signals entering that function. We don’t
quite know that yet but it’s getting there.

At the end of the post, you express doubt that one can simply choose to
believe or not to believe. If a belief were something inherited, or
something very difficult to establish and which had to have a proven
relationship to reality, I might agree with you. However, I think along
with Rick that beliefs generally are rather easy to establish and remove,
since they are only guesses about imaginary things and don’t need to be
taken seriously unless we’re trying to arrive at statements verging on
what I call “knowledge.” Knowledge is much harder to create,
and because it depends on evidence and tests, much harder to abandon as
well.

I suggest that what we call “a belief” is simply a reference
condition with which we compare an imagined perception. If the perception
is different from the reference condition, there is an error: we then
change the perception, because it has to match the reference condition to
be accepted. However, because it’e being imagined, it’s easy to change it
to match the reference condition unless we’ve stated that condition so
loosely that we can’t tell whether there is any error. This is probably
easier to see if we think of an engineer scribbling designs on a sheet of
paper. The designs are pictures of what the engineer is imagining. In a
complicated design, internal consistency is not usually achieved on the
first try; the engineer says “Oops, that won’t work because it would
be impossible to reach the set screw and tighten it.” So the
imaginary picture is altered until there are no contradictory or
impossible features in it. Then the engineer leans back, smiles, and
thinks “I do believe that will work.”

Of course he has to build it and try it before he can say he knows it
works.

I’m trying to do here what I recommended a week or so ago: translating
the common-language situation into PCT-compatible terms. We don’t need a
word like belief if we have a more exact term for what is happening
(except for when we have to communicate with people who know only the
common-language words).

MT: So, the White Queen can
control her belief perceptions but Alice can’t. Can we in real life? I
think not.

I think you can see now what my answer would be. Alice only thinks she
can’t because she thinks beliefs have something to do with reality, and
you can’t change reality just by believing something different about it.
If she didn’t use the term belief that way, however, she would have had
no problem in agreeing with the White Queen.

Best,

Bill P.

···

At 03:00 PM 2/4/2010 -0500, Martin Taylor wrote:

[From Fred Nickols (2010.02.04.1738 MST)]

My attention was caught (how's that for a behavioral statement?) by Martin Taylor's comment below:

I'm trying to do here what I recommended a week
or so ago: translating the common-language
situation into PCT-compatible terms.

I reacted to the statement because I would have thought the task was the other way around: translating PCT terms into common language terms.

Regards,

Fred Nickols
nickols@att.net

[From Bill Powers (2010.02.04.1710 MST)]

Bruce Abbott (2010.02.04.1535 EST) –

BA: Careful, Rick: You’re
starting to sound like a Skinnerian! Skinner would

have said that the rat presses the lever, not because it expects
food

thereby to be delivered, but because food delivery has followed its

lever-presses in the past. Tolman would disagree, asserting that the rat
had

learned a means-end expectation for reaching a goal. Now, wanting food,
it

presses the lever.

BP: I wouldn’t use those common-language terms or say “because”
as you say Skinner would have done when it’s a non-sequitur. OK, the
delivery has followed presses in the past. What does that have to do with
pressing the lever this time? Could it be that the rat has learned what
action to produce in order to create a given perception? That’s how we
would replace the “because” statements in PCT-compatible
language. There’s nothing about past events that can affect present
behavior in the slightest, unless there was some change in the physical
system to alter the relationship of actions to perceptions. Events don’t
cause anything; they just happen.

Terms like expectation are essentially useless to us unless you can
express the same meaning in PCT terms.

The reason your models work so
well without expectation is that the

environmental consequence of the control system’s actions (its

negative-feedback relation to the controlled variable) is already built
into

the model. The model behaves “as if” it “believed”
that moving the cursor in

a given direction would reduce the error between cursor position and

reference. But of course it doesn’t “believe” anything; it just
acts as it

was made to act. The thermostat provides another
example.

The environmental consequence is not built into the model; it stays in
the environment. What is in the model is a perceptual input function, a
comparator with a reference level, and an output function. In a
hierarchical model there are many of these things, connected in a
specific way. Unless you can connect “expectation” to something
in this model, you’d be better off finding out what the term indicates,
and starting at that level. Just saying “expectation” doesn’t
explain anything.

Behaving “as if” there is a belief is an interpretation by an
observer who wants to see beliefs whether any are actually there or not.
This is like making every corner the driver of a car encounters into an
“implicit” choice point. It’s only a choice point if the driver
makes a choice, which doesn’t happen if the driver goes that way very
often. Same for beliefs: if the driver makes an hypothesis about whether
this corner is the one where he is to turn, then whether he turns or not
depends on the credence he gives to this hypothesis. On the other hand,
he might just turn the corner without hypothesizing anything, because he
knows this is the right way to the destination.

BA: So what would distinguish a
system that developed expectations from one that did not? Perhaps a
crucial test would be to observe what the system did if the expectation
were violated.

BP: I wouldn’t start there, because I wouldn’t know how to tell if there
were an expectation at all. Maybe systems don’t ever develop expectations
– how would you know? The only way to find out what you’re talking about
is to settle down and look at something you expect, and take the
experience apart into its components. Here you sit at the train station,
expecting a train to arrive any minute. How do you do that
“expecting” thing? You don’t do it by seeing a train because
the train isn’t in sight yet. What exactly is it that you do that you
call expecting something?

By the time you’ve found the answers to all the questions that come up,
you won’t need the common-language terms any more. You can say what you
mean in PCT terms.

If you suddenly reversed
the relationship

between mouse and cursor movements, a system without an expectation
would

simply continue to act as it did before, and control would simply
fail.

There’s a partial definition of expectation. What is the expectation,
such that when it’s missing, control would fail?

A system that
“expected” the cursor to move as before (based on previous

experience) would find its expectation violated and presumably take
action

to sort out the problem.

Is that how control systems change their behavior to counteract errors?
If you venture a guess as to how this expectation thing results in taking
action, and what kind of action it would take, and what the problem is
that needs to be sorted out, you would have a useful model, perhaps, in
which the term expectation wouldn’t even appear.

BA: Although this seems like a
simple enough test for expectation, one might

have difficulty distinguishing between true expectation and
reorganization.

As in the case of expectancy, in reorganization the violation of the
usual

relation between mouse movement and cursor movement would bring about
a

change in the system’s organization; if successful, reorganization
would

restore the negative feedback relation and control over the CV would

recover.

BP: If you can’t measure an expectation by itself, how do you think
you’re going to know when an expectation is violated? What we can observe
is that when the sign of the environmental feedback function is reversed,
control at first starts to run away exponentially, and then, after about
four tenths of a second, the control system reverses its own sign and
control is recaptured. Rick and I collaborated on that experiment. I
don’t see any room there for expectation. In fact, knowing that reversals
are going to happen during a tracking run is of no help at all, since you
don’t know when they’re going to happen. If you try to prepare for
them, your tracking performance deteriorates; if you don’t prepare you
just go through the changes as usual. You just wait for the error and
then correct it. No expectations needed, and if you have any, they don’t
help.

Expectation may be a high-level
process involved in planning actions,

drawing on means-end relations learned during previous experience,
worked

out logically, or perhaps communicated to us by others. ("You want
to get to

the bank? Take Third Street to Maple and turn left." You then follow
those

directions because you expect that they will take you to the
bank.)

That’s more like it. I would say you follow the directions as the only
means you know of getting to the bank, and in the background are hoping
that you’re remembering them right or they were given right. There might
be some sense of expectancy, but I don’t know how that would change if
the destination is a bank or a grocery store. A little more work and we
could just drop the term expectancy, except as a description of a
side-effect of doing all this.

Did you really say “planning actions”?

Expectation seems less likely to
be involved in habitual activities,

although then we do behave “as if” we had
them.

The “as if” part is in the observer’s imagination. Throw it
out.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.02.05.0400 UT)]

[From Fred Nickols (2010.02.04.1738 MST)]

My attention was caught (how’s that for a behavioral statement?) by Martin Taylor’s comment below:

I’m trying to do here what I recommended a week
or so ago: translating the common-language
situation into PCT-compatible terms.

I reacted to the statement because I would have thought the task was the other way around: translating PCT terms into common language terms.

I would have thought so, too. Clearly we were both mistaken.

Bruce

[From Richard Kennaway (2010.03.05.0803 GMT)]

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.02.05.0400 UT)]

[From Fred Nickols (2010.02.04.1738 MST)]

My attention was caught (how's that for a behavioral statement?) by Martin Taylor's comment below:

I'm trying to do here what I recommended a week

or so ago: translating the common-language

situation into PCT-compatible terms.

I reacted to the statement because I would have thought the task was the other way around: translating PCT terms into common language terms.

I would have thought so, too. Clearly we were both mistaken.

The whole thrust of science is to explain, and sometimes explain away, the common language descriptions. The common language descriptions are either wrong, or not even wrong. Why do rocks seek the ground? They don't, better explanations are given by Newton's laws, or general relativity, which explain the phenomenon in terms of invisible fields or curved space. What transmits plague? Not "bad air", but creatures so small you can't see them without a microscope, travelling on fleas travelling on rats. What is a rainbow? Not a promise from God, but a geometrical consequence of how air-water interfaces bend light.

Scientific explanations cannot be translated into everyday terms. They *become* the everyday terms. The old everyday terms, and the wrong beliefs they embody, go away, or dwindle into dead metaphors for the new. We can go on using the word "sunrise" without committing geocentrism; nobody nowadays thinks perfumes can ward off infectious disease.

···

--
Richard Kennaway, jrk@cmp.uea.ac.uk, Richard Kennaway
School of Computing Sciences,
University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.