[From Rick Marken (980223.1320)]
Jeff Vancouver (980223.1430 EST) --
If we were doing brain surgery and could identify a nerve (or set of
nerves) that represented the path from the comparator to the output
function of some ECU, we could stimulate that nerve and watch the
output. Thus, error _could_ be an independent variable.
No Jeff. The error variable is still in the loop. The stimulation
from the electrode is an independent variable, but the error variable
is not. Try simulating this on a computer and see what happens.
Closed loop is cause-effect-cause-effect-cause-effect . . .
No Jeff, it's not. Each variable in the loop is both cause and
effect _at the same time_. Try simulating a sequential state
control system on a computer and see what happens.
We've been over these and other basic point 100s of times in the
last 7 years, Jeff. What's the problem?
Jeff Vancouver (980223.1455 EST) --
PCT is about control, not conventional psychology, so I am not
sure what your "according to PCT" means.
It means that the behavior you see organmisms "producing" is a
side-effect of the process of control of perception. If conventional
psychology is not about control then it is not about the behavior
of living organisms.
There is a lot less of this [testing for controlled variables] than
there should be [these is actually _none_ of it -- RM], but there
are other things they do that help us understand control.
Such as?
I respectfully submit that _you and Bill and others_ see more of
an absence then exists.
Why not fill in the gaps for me? Why not tell me what conventional
psychologists have done to help us understand control? It's not
a secret, is it?
Bill Powers (980223.1313 MST) --
Reading the posts for the past few days has left me with an
overwhelming sense of futility. It is futile even to try to
explain why.
I find it invigorating to watch PCT confirmed again and again,
with every post to CSGNet. The controlled variables are as clear
as bells, aren't they?
Best
Rick
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--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken