anticipation, etc.

[from Mary Powers 970422.2000 MDT]

Jeff Vancouver:

Here's what I said: "anticipation, expectations, and planning are products
of the program or strategy level in the imagination mode...this level is so
important to some people that they think it's the whole ball game. It isn't."

Here's what you said I said: "anticipation, planning, etc. are examples of
imagination mode and some think that is all there is."

I think that there is quite a difference between the program level and the
imagination mode.

What I was talking about was the tendency of some people to believe that the
mind is almost entirely concerned with anticipation, expectations, planning,
strategies, programs, logic, decisions - that is, to believe that the
program level IS the mind - all there is to the mind, or at least all that
is important. The ability to be logical, to plan, etc., are often thought
of as the highest type of mental function. (In PCT these abilities are not
the highest level, but rather are in service to the principle and system
concept levels).

You were responding to a paragraph from Bill P. about the imagination
connection. In a post to Hans, he was talking about the simplicity of
"internal simulation" in the HPCT model, as opposed to the MCT model,
finishing his comment by saying "complex behavior involves many of these
elementary control systems operating at once, so the overall effect can be
that of a complex simulation of the environment - when many systems are
operating in the imagination mode at the same time."

This seemed to strike a chord with you, as referring to an idea you "have
been trying to pursue". It's a little hard to know what that idea is,
except I very much doubt it has much to do with Bill's and Hans' ongoing
debate about PCT and MCT. However, it seems to have something to do with
the imagination mode, since you then misquoted me as above, omitting my
reference to the program level so that it looks like I was saying "some
think that's all there is" about the imagination mode. Then you added this
comment: "I think one should be careful in mistaking a view that 'that is
all there [is]' with 'this is an area that interests me and where I will
focus my research.'"

So is it the imagination mode that interests you or is it the program level?
In HPCT (at the moment) the imagination mode is possible at any level, and
the program level can operate either in the real time or imagination mode.
Eleven levels, two modes. You say "my point was simply that 'anticipation,
planning, etc' are considered phenomenon that PCT can handle (via the
imagination mode)" - and I say yes, via the imagination mode AT THE PROGRAM
LEVEL. To me, leaving out the level involved invites misunderstanding -
leading to the mistaken notions that the program level is the only place
where imagination happens, or that the only thing that happens at the
program level is imagination, or that the mode and the level are basically
interchangeable.

Finally, you say that I have hurt you with [something] I said. I have
looked at everything I wrote and see nothing hurtful there. Perhaps you
thought that I was confusing your interest in the imagination mode with
thinking that you believe that is all there is? That would be hard to do,
since I was posting to Chuck Tucker, didn't even know you were reading CSG
posts, and was talking about the program level, not the imagination mode.
What did you infer from what I said that made you feel hurt? Why are you
blaming me for how you feel?

Mary P.

[from Jeff Vancouver 970508.1000 EST]

[from Mary Powers 970422.2000 MDT]

Jeff Vancouver:

Here's what I said: "anticipation, expectations, and planning are products
of the program or strategy level in the imagination mode...this level is so
important to some people that they think it's the whole ball game. It isn't."

Here's what you said I said: "anticipation, planning, etc. are examples of
imagination mode and some think that is all there is."

I think that there is quite a difference between the program level and the
imagination mode.

It is amazing the difference one word makes. I thought, in your original
statement, that you said "... this MODE is so important to some people..."
I definately agree that program level and imagination mode are two
different things. I think that our problem (or my problem if you wish) is
that to me the issues--anticipation, expectations, planning, strategies,
programs, logic, decisions (the list is getting longer [see below], but
that is okay)--have in common that the imagination mode is involved, not
that the program level is involved. Hence, I misread your post (I don't
have your post, so I am assuming your quote above accurately reproduces
it). Below I will explain why I think what I think.

What I was talking about was the tendency of some people to believe that the
mind is almost entirely concerned with anticipation, expectations, planning,
strategies, programs, logic, decisions - that is, to believe that the
program level IS the mind - all there is to the mind, or at least all that
is important.

So is it the imagination mode that interests you or is it the program level?

Both, but mostly the imagination mode.

In HPCT (at the moment) the imagination mode is possible at any level, and
the program level can operate either in the real time or imagination mode.
Eleven levels, two modes. You say "my point was simply that 'anticipation,
planning, etc' are considered phenomenon that PCT can handle (via the
imagination mode)" - and I say yes, via the imagination mode AT THE PROGRAM
LEVEL. To me, leaving out the level involved invites misunderstanding -
leading to the mistaken notions that the program level is the only place
where imagination happens, or that the only thing that happens at the
program level is imagination, or that the mode and the level are basically
interchangeable.

To me, leaving out the level has exactly the opposite effect. As you
say, imagination occurs at many levels, though not the first. Thus, for
example, at the sequence level, an output could run through memory to the
input function resulting in an "anticipation" of the output. No question
that the anticipation is likely to be inaccurate (and I don't really want
to get into that debate here), but the idea is that imagination mode can
occur at most any level and thus phenomenon that psychology labels
anticipation, etc. might well occur on any level that imagination occurs
on. I don't want to unduly tie the sloppy psychology terms with the more
specific PCT terms. Hence, I think it an undue constraint to say those
phenomenon are the result of the program level in imagination mode. I
think they are likely related to many possible levels in imagination
mode.

Finally, you say that I have hurt you with [something] I said. I have
looked at everything I wrote and see nothing hurtful there. Perhaps you
thought that I was confusing your interest in the imagination mode with
thinking that you believe that is all there is? That would be hard to do,
since I was posting to Chuck Tucker, didn't even know you were reading CSG
posts, and was talking about the program level, not the imagination mode.
What did you infer from what I said that made you feel hurt? Why are you
blaming me for how you feel?

It was not the original post that hurt me. It was the accusation that I
deliberately misrepresented you to make my point. Apparently I did
misrepresent you, but it was not intentional nor deliberate. Am I
blaming you for how I feel? Yes and no, you created a disturbance, it
was my input function and reference signal that translated that
disturbance into an error, which I suspect is the source of the feeling.

Does this help clear things up?

Jeff