Arguments-fire

rfrom M. Remi COTE 960218.1110
[to Bill Powers (960218.0300 MST)]

You:
Nobody else can make up your mind for you.

Are the arguments interesting just for the sake of seeing
who is scoring the most points, like a sporting event?

I don't know what I'm leading up to here. Perhaps I'm just explaining to
myself that arguments are futile, and that the only useful way to
communicate PCT is to focus on the basic principle and tell people to
work out the conflicts with older ideas for themselves. At least for the
moment, in the middle of this night, that seems like an excellent idea.

Me: I am not arguing, I am asking question. If you think fire-evolution
has nothing to do with PCT, DON'T reply to it. Let me in silence. I will
maybe find another subject of questioning. If you want to ostracysed,
fine with me. I cannot control you. I have nothing against PCT. I agree
with every thing. I am looking too for the higher controlled variable,
and also I seek to understand where the reference come from in the
higher hierarchy. I don't see any antagonism between you and me.
You seing them, that is your problem. I should underlined that what
you do on the list is valuable work. In a way you are a mentor, and
this could be sold for money, but you choose to generously give
it away. In a way I am exploiting you, seeking your advice on old
problem. But maybe I should stop it. And begin work on what is
truly important in my life, my PhD. dissertation...

ยทยทยท

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<[to Bill Leach 960217.20:37 U.S. Eastern Time Zone]

You:
"that humans _can_ control (and have) an enormous amount more than can
any other animal..." seem a certain enough statement to be a "fundamental
truth" sort of thing.

Me: If you cannot proove something, then it is wrong?

You:
To start with humans are _not_ in an "artificial" environment anymore
than a bird in its' nest.

Me:
Artificial mean Man-Made (harrap)

You: while ignoring that human life
expectancy has continually increased with technology for as far back in
history as we have been able to determine life expectancy values.

Me: Quality of life is at stake here, not quantity.

You:
It was even simpler yet if you were the slave and not the slave owner
(not necessarily more pleasent but clearly simpler)!

Me: slavery appear after fire

You:
As far as I know we don't even have an objective,
quantifiable measure for comparitive levels of human stress much less a
measure that could also be applied to some animal.

Me: some people are working on these thing, it is not for me, I have
no ambition and a tiny ego.

You:
How many "wild" animals die of "old age"?

Me: I don't wan't to die after a long sickness period like T. Leary, in his
dying room. This is something that haunted me.

You:
With respect to final results, the environment rarely even has much
influence much less "control"!

Me: try to breath air in space, or in water. try to lift yoursel in a
10 G environement. Try to go deer hunting in downtown, and tell me
about the squat team manner.

You:
Most of us would not last a month if left to "gentle Mother nature"
without any of our technology.

Me: Precisely because we became dependant from teck.

You:
What perceptions PEOPLE try to control and how they control
their perceptions is possibly the ONLY thing that matters!

Me: I agree, what I had is that teck create an illusion of control
that can put ourself in big problem. Like the young guy in a ski
slope, not thinking about rrsp, not depositing any money for
his old day (Bill P. example).

You:
Your statement: "I believe that we were domesticated by technology, ..."
is a claim that our environment CAUSED us to be as we are! That is about
as "pure" an S-R claim as I have seen on the net. The statement is
diametrically opposed to what PCT asserts.

Me: Environement is responsible for the perturbation that influence our
perception. We try to control perception. I assert that fire bring more
perturbation. Proove me wrong or ostracysed me, like I am sure you
will but I really don't care, cause I don't want to control you.

You:
Had you said something like "Some people have USED power made available
through the use of technology to limit or restrict the range and/or
ability of other people to control their own perceptions."

Me:
If you blindfold somebody, you have some power over his perception, no?

you:
your assertion is rather obviously absurd. Changes occur, they
might or might NOT affect "surviability".

Me: You didn't understand:
Remi:

I basically believe that a mutation or a reorganisation of gene is
selected only if it is a necessity to survive, if it give an advantage
over competition to get more chance of survival.

I tought I made myself clear, but who care!
____________
Me:
Here I should repeat to make myself clear, It is not the brain that
allow more psychological suffering, it is the environement.

You:
Once again, unless I am completely misunderstanding what you are trying
to say, your last sentence is utterly false.

Me: It is too bad.

-------------

You:
Are you trying to tell me that Monsieur and Madam Smith are "all stressed
out" because Reboks exist?! Their environment MADE them spend money they
can not afford to spend?

Me:
Exactly yes.

--------------

You:
I personally think that theories such as "fire-evolution" are worse than
no help at all. Blaming human problems upon anything else other than
human failure to understand control theory and its' implications only
serves to divert badly needed attention to useless efforts.

Me:
If it is really what you think, explain to me why did you reply my
post. You are conflicted with antagonism, it is not a pretty sight!

___________

Me: we worry to much, as if we enconter a bear every day and we
are not dying of it, because of teck.

you:
Technology is a "null" issue except that it is through the application of
technology alone that it is possible now to supply the basic needs for
survival for every human -- if only the will existed to do so. The
ability to do this has only been physically possible for a relatively few
years.

--------
You:
I doubt that land based mammals such as humans would be particularly
adept at identifying what limits might and might not exist in such
an environment anyway.

Me: Pessimist!

---------
You:
I am afraid that all I see in "fire-evolution theory" is a lot of smoke!

Me: Too bad. But I don't really care.

______

You:
in either case what matters is what perceptions you
choose to control and what perceptions you choose not to control.

Me: A teck-environement is totaly different from a "natural" world.

Don't watch too much t.v., that teck can be a bad dope!

Don't forget that I really don't care about you and your idea, I am not
controlling you Bill L...