Ayn Rand and the Elephants

[From Bill Williams 17 January 2004 12:20 AM CST]

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.16.1130)]

Oops. Hit the wrong button before. Let's try again.

Bruce Gregory (2004.01.16.1202)--

Well, the good news is that a single-consumer, single-producer model is
no worse than the models most economists work with every day. The bad
news is these models cannot accurately reflect the behavior of real
economies. As Keen says, "... the peculiar language and mathematics
used to derive these results makes it difficult to see just how absurd
the assumptions needed to sustain the aggregation process are. It
sounds much more highbrow to say that 'preferences are assumed to be
homothetic and affine in income' than it does to say 'we assume all
consumers are identical and never change their spending habits'."

Can't this be fixed by assuming that that the aggregate entities (producer
and consumer) are not made up of individuals that are identical?

No. This wouldn't help. The search for a "fix" has been going on for more than a century. So far the results have been that a solution for the difficulties of orthodox theory are more remote than they were when the search began late in the 19th century. Now, people are publishing claims that it can be "proved" that no solution is as a matter of math and logic possible.

And how do we know that this really needs to be fixed?

If an economic agent can't learn, then the resulting economic theory is obiviously going to be of quite limited use and if economic agents are all the same then this also creates problems such as limited scope of relevance. Or, ask yourself, do we really want to make policy decisions based upon "models" that assume that all economic agents are the same, and that economic agents either can't or don't learn?

Does Keen show how what he refers to as theh "absurd assumptions" affect the behavior of the model?

Yes. I say this without having read the book.But I'm not worried about making such a claim based on the chapter headings. Also, the use of the book here as a sort of "pony" to provide efficient access for students to contemporary problems in orthodox theory is supportive. Then there are Bruce's remarks that, would so indicate. So, there is a basis for affirming that "yes" the book does provide such explainations. But, this should be no surprize-- given that the book is a heterodox critique of orthodox theory-- this is a standard feature of the literature. Which, is why I was only mildly interested in the book. As C.E. Ayres (1944) "All the criticism can do has already beem done."
As lots of people now agree, the question has shifted from critique to, "Can you generate something better?" I doubt Keen has a clear idea about how to do
"something better." If he did, I think he wouldn't be publishing more critique. But, he's done a nice job, and aside from reading the journals and going to seminars you can read what he says, and be pretty much "up-to-date" in regard to economic issues view from a heterodox standpoint.

Actually, it's not quite clear to me that assumptions like the one you quote
..... are actually made in models of the aggregate economy.

First, how would you know? You've recently made a survey of the literature? Of, course not. Take my word for, assumptions like the ones Bruce quotes have been and are still in widespread use. There is a very extensive literature of this stuff published in what are considered to be the "best" journals.

Or, don't take my word for it, consider a paper by, Quah, John k-h. 1997 "The Law of Demand When Income is Price Dependent" Econometrica, Volume 65 Number 6 November pp. 1421-42. On the first page of the paper (p. 1421.)in footnote 2 it is declared that, "Homothetic transformations are a special case of affine transformations." For those not intimately familiar with the character of contemporary economic theoretical research Quah's paper might prove as Bruce Gregory says, "an eye opener." Clouds of integrals fly like snow. And, the argumentation reminds me of French cybernetics.

A JSTR search for the keyword "affine" returned over 200 references, I assume that most of these papers will also include a consideration of the "homothetic" issue-- so take your pick. At some point I'm going to have to read this literature--sigh...

The neo-classical approach has been every bit as absurd as Keen claims. And, nothing much has changed in more than a century, consider Veblen's (1909) statement,

      "This supposition [of the maximization of utility ]
      may be objected to as a bit of purerile absurdity; but
      it has been a long time since puerility or absurdity has
      been a bar to any suposition in arguments on marginal utility.
          footnote 38 p. 225.
              page from _The Place of Science_ reprint

Veblen, Thorstein 1908 "Professor Clark's Economics" Quarterly Journal
  of Economics Volume 22 Issue 2

for psychologists and others outside economics, the Quarterly Journal
  of Ecnomics has been published by Harvard since the late 19th century.

In a somewhat earlier and famous passage, Veblen {1896) says,

The hedonistic conception of man is that of a lightning calculator
of pleasures and pains, who oscilates like a homogenous globule of
desire of happiness under the impluse of stimuli that shift him
about the area but leave him intact. He has neither antecedent nor
consequent. He is an isolated, definitive human datum, in stable
equilibrium except for the buffets of the impinging forces that
displace him in one direction or another. Self-imposed in elemental
space, he spins symmetrically about his own spiritual axis until
the parallelogram of forces bears down upon him, whereupon he
follows the line of the resultant. When the force of the impact
is spent, he comes to rest, a self-contained globule of desire as
before. Spiritually, the hedonistic man is not a prime mover. He
is not the seat of process of living, except in the sense that he
is subject to a series of permutations enforced upon him by
circumstances external and alien to him. p. 73-74.
                                Page numbers _Place of Science"

Veblen, Thorstein 1898 "Why Economics is not an Evolutionary Science"
  Quarterly Journal of Economics Volume 12
     Reprinted in _The Place of Science_

Among other qualities, Veblen is pointing out that the economists were assuming that economic agents were, in the current lingo, "homothetic and
"affine."

What are the results of the assumptions and methods of orthdox economic theorists? Consider a paper
   
Clark, Colin W. 1973 "Profit Maximization and The Extinction of
  Animal Speciesq." Journal Political Economy vol 81 # 4 July/August

  p. 95O-61.

  "In this paper I construct and analyze a simple mathematical model for
  the commercial exploitation of a natural animal population. The model
  takes into account the response of the population to harvesting pressure,
  the increasing harvesting costs associated with decreasing population
  levels, and the preference of the harvesters for present over future
  revenues. The principle conclusion of the analysis is that, depending
  on certain easily stated biological and economic conditions, extermination
  of the entire population may appear as the most attractive policy,
  even to an individual owner."

Enough said already??? But, there is more, much more,…

Consider,

Kremer, Michael and Morcom, Charles. "Elephants" American
  Economic Review Volume 9O Number 1 March p. 212-34.

   "Many open-access resources, such as elephants, are used
    to produce storable goods. Anticipated future scarcity
    of these resources will increase current prices and
    poaching. This implies that, for given initial conditions,
    there may be rational expectations equilibria leading to
    both extinction and survival. The cheapest way for
    governments to eliminate extinction equilibria may be to
    commit to tough antipoaching measures if the population
    falls below a threshold. For governents without
    creditablity, the cheapest way to eliminate extinction
    equilibria may be to accumulate a sufficient stockpile
    of the storable good and threaten to sell it should the
    population fall." p. 212.

What the authors are suggesting is, if it isn't clear from the absract is that a weak government that wishes to prevent a wild animal, such as an elephant, that is in danger of becoming extinct as a result of poaching may do the following: First it can kill _more_ elephants, second stockpile the elephants ivory, third threaten to dump the stockpiled ivory on the market if the poaching continues. Unless someone is really interested, I don't think it is owrth going into the convoluted logic and assumptions that generate this conclusion. However, a discussion that the "Elephants" paper generated here may be of interest. When I found the paper I brought it to the attention of a graduate inter-disciplinary seminar on social theory as an example of one strand of thinking in contemporary economics. The unexpected result was the eruption of a shouting-- it wasn't a "match." I was unprepared for the uproar that follow distribution of the paper-- so I wasn't really in a "match." But, then the uproar changed into a screaming fit when a French Marxist joined into the discussion. I was of the opinion that it wasn't going to do much good to kill _more_ elephants when the basic problem was that too many elephants were being killed. So, I was grateful that the French Marxists took the side of the elephants-- that is don't kill more elephants.

One of the more lasting effects of the "elephants" discussion was a persistent difficultly explaining to the non-ecnomics grad students just what, and why the uproar had taken place. This was a difficulty, that was evidenced by a lot of eye rolling, and it was never really adaquately sorted out.

So, when you raise the question,

Does Keen show how what he refers to as theh "absurd assumptions" affect the behavior of the model?

The answer, of course, is "Yes." But, this isn't any longer the question. The obvious and urgent question has become "What would Ayn Rand do?"

Bill Williams

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.17.1510)]

Bill Williams (17 January 2004 12:20 AM CST) --

Rick Marken (2004.01.16.1130)

Can't this be fixed by assuming that that the aggregate entities
(producer
and consumer) are not made up of individuals that are identical?

No. This wouldn't help. The search for a "fix" has been going on for
more than a century... Now, people are publishing claims that it can
be "proved" that no solution is as a matter of math and logic > possible.

This is not an explanation. It's just an assertion. And not a very
convincing one at that.

Or, ask yourself, do we really want to make policy decisions based
upon "models" that assume that all economic agents are the same, and
that economic agents either can't or don't learn?

If the model accounts for the data then, yes, I would make policy based
on it. I think it's wiser to make decisions based on a model that makes
sense _and_ accounts for the data than on intuitions of no demonstrable
validity.

Actually, it's not quite clear to me that assumptions like the one you
quote
..... are actually made in models of the aggregate economy.

First, how would you know? You've recently made a survey of the
literature?

Models of aggregate economic behavior necessarily deal with aggregate
variables, like GNP, unemployment rate, capital and non-capital income,
and so on. But even the people who measure them know that these
variables are a summary over individual variability. People who measure
GNP, for example, don't assume that there is just one product produced
in the economy. Besides, to the extent that individual differences
within the aggregate -- such as differences in incomes- are thought
relevant to the behavior of the model they will be incorporated into
the model.

The neo-classical approach has been every bit as absurd as Keen claims.

If so, that doesn't mean that every model of the economy has to be
absurd. If the neo-classical models of the economy really do make
absurd assumptions then what would be useful is an explanation of how
to do the modeling correctly. Since you haven't read Keen you probably
can't say whether he explains how to fix the neo-classical models. But
maybe you can. Better yet, maybe you could explain how to build the
Test Bed model correctly. That seems like a very promising approach to
macro economic modeling to me.

What are the results of the assumptions and methods of orthdox
economic theorists? Consider a paper ...

The principle conclusion of the analysis is that, depending
  on certain easily stated biological and economic conditions,
extermination
  of the entire population may appear as the most attractive policy,
  even to an individual owner."

Enough said already??? But, there is more, much more,…

But all you've done is presented a verbal conclusion. I don't know what
is being analyzed or what the model is but the conclusion doesn't seem
that farfetched to me. Actually, it sounds a bit like what _almost_
happened to the American Bison.

What the authors are suggesting is, if it isn't clear from the absract
is that a weak government that wishes to prevent a wild animal, such
as an elephant, that is in danger of becoming extinct as a result of
poaching may do the following: First it can kill _more_ elephants,
second stockpile the elephants ivory, third threaten to dump the
stockpiled ivory on the market if the poaching continues. Unless
someone is really interested, I don't think it is owrth going into the
convoluted logic and assumptions that generate this conclusion.

It doesn't sound all that convoluted to me. Actually, it sounds rather
clever. The government harvests enough ivory so that it can bring the
price of ivory way down when it wants to. The would-be poachers know
that the government will bring the prices down if they poach. Assuming
that the poachers main interest is money, this strategy may lead the
poachers to seek other sources of income. I imagine that this strategy
depends on assumptions about the size of the existing inventory of
elephants, how many elephants would have to be killed for the
government to have enough ivory on hand to bring the price of ivory way
down, how far the price must be brought down until the poaching is not
worth the effort, and so on. I imagine that this market strategy will
work only if there are enough elephants so that enough can be killed to
threaten the ivory market while leaving enough alive to build up the
future size of the herd.

But neither this nor the previous example seems to have anything to do
with the assumption of homogeneity of groups.

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.01.17.1828)]

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.17.1510)]

This is not an explanation. It's just an assertion. And not a very
convincing one at that.

What impresses me least about CSGnet is the way that some participants
feel no compunction about pontificating on topics they are quite
willing to admit they know virtually nothing about. Rather than seeking
to inform themselves, they are quite content to ask others to summarize
their knowledge and then to pass judgment on those summaries. (Can you
explain quantum mechanics in a few words? Well that's not very
convincing.) If you want to intelligently criticize Keen, I humbly
suggest that you read him. I know that 's radical, but I hope it is not
completely unreasonable.

Bruce Gregory

"Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions; everyone is not
entitled to his or her own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."
                                                                                Andre Gide

From [Marc Abrams (2004.01.17.1850)]

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.01.17.1828)]

> [From Rick Marken (2004.01.17.1510)]

What impresses me least about CSGnet is the way that some participants
feel no compunction about pontificating on topics they are quite
willing to admit they know virtually nothing about. Rather than seeking
to inform themselves, they are quite content to ask others to summarize
their knowledge and then to pass judgment on those summaries. (Can you
explain quantum mechanics in a few words? Well that's not very
convincing.) If you want to intelligently criticize Keen, I humbly
suggest that you read him. I know that 's radical, but I hope it is not
completely unreasonable.

Hallelujah, a voice of reason. But you shouldn't hold your breath Bruce,
It's a common CSGnet tactic that Rick and sometimes Bill have honed to
_perfection_. After all, it's a lot easier to attack strawmen & ghosts, then
the facts.

Been there, done that.

Marc

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.17.1720)]

Rick Marken (2004.01.17.1510)--

This is not an explanation. It's just an assertion. And not a very
convincing one at that.

Bruce Gregory (2004.01.17.1828)

What impresses me least about CSGnet is the way that some
participants feel no compunction about pontificating on topics
they are quite willing to admit they know virtually nothing about.

Marc Abrams (2004.01.17.1850)

Hallelujah, a voice of reason. But you shouldn't hold your breath
Bruce,
It's a common CSGnet tactic that Rick and sometimes Bill have honed to
_perfection_. After all, it's a lot easier to attack strawmen &
ghosts, then
the facts.

I don't understand. Maybe you could explain why you think I am
pontificating or attacking straw men.

Here's how the exchange went:

Bruce Gregory (2004.01.16.1202) said:

Well, the good news is that a single-consumer, single-producer model is
no worse than the models most economists work with every day. The bad
news is these models cannot accurately reflect the behavior of real
economies. As Keen says, "... the peculiar language and mathematics
used to derive these results makes it difficult to see just how absurd
the assumptions needed to sustain the aggregation process are. It
sounds much more highbrow to say that 'preferences are assumed to be
homothetic and affine in income' than it does to say 'we assume all
consumers are identical and never change their spending habits'."

The I [Rick Marken (2004.01.16.1130)] asked in reply:

Can't this be fixed by assuming that that the aggregate entities
(producer
and consumer) are not made up of individuals that are identical?

And Bill Williams (17 January 2004 12:20 AM CST) answered me by
saying:

No. This wouldn't help. The search for a "fix" has been going on for
more than a century. So far the results have been that a solution for
the difficulties of orthodox theory are more remote than they were
when the search began late in the 19th century. Now, people are
publishing claims that it can be "proved" that no solution is as a
matter of math and logic possible.

And I [Rick Marken (2004.01.17.1510)] replied to Bill W. with what you
found to be the offending remark:

This is not an explanation. It's just an assertion. And not a very
convincing one at that.

Could you please tell me how this is pontificating or attacking straw
men? I made the comments above because I just didn't see in Bill W.'s
(17 January 2004 12:20 AM CST) answer an explanation of why economic
models, which make the assumption that aggregates _are_ homothetic and
affine, could not be fixed by assuming that the aggregate entities _are
not_ homothetic and affine. I really don't see my reply as
pontificating. I would like to know why you think it is.

I also don't see any attack in my comment. If there is an attack I
would like to know what you think is being attacked. What is the straw
man or ghost that I attacked by saying that Bill W.'s reply is not an
explanation?

I'm particularly puzzled by the fact that both of you quickly jumped on
my comment that "This is not an explanation", obviously finding it very
disturbing. But neither one of you seems to have been disturbed at all
by Bill W.'s comment about Bill P. being a "crank". Why was my
comment about Bill W.'s reply not being an explanation an "attack" and
Bill W.'s comment about Bill P. being a "crank" not one?

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

From [Marc Abrams (2004.01.17.2355)]

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.17.1720)]

I don't understand. Maybe you could explain why you think I am
pontificating or attacking straw men.

I was responding to Bruce's comment, not anything in particular you said.

I said;

"Hallelujah, a voice of reason. But you shouldn't hold your breath Bruce,
It's a common CSGnet tactic that Rick and sometimes Bill have honed to
_perfection_. After all, it's a lot easier to attack strawmen & ghosts, then
the facts."

You claim you know little about economics and that you have not read Keen,
so how do you come to the conclusion that Keen did not 'explain' it properly
or it's not a very good assertion? Based on what? Someone else's summary?
What you really meant to say was that whoever provided you with Keen's
details did not make a convincing argument for Keen. _That_ is considerably
different than what Keen might have actually said. Of course, since you did
not read him you don't have a clue

Rick, how about bringing some _informed_ comments to the table. You're
certainly capable of doing that. I find it amazing that both you and Bill,
supposedely 'experts' on purposeful behavior, are clueless when it comes to
human interactions. I'm not saying this to be hurtful, I'm saying it as an
observation, that you guys might want to look at. Unless of course you
attribute what goes on in CSGnet as not being 'purposeful'.

Rick, your a very smart fellow. Maybe too smart for your own good. You think
by taking bits and pieces of info you can construct anything yuo want and
you're perfectly correct. You can, the problem is that what you sometimes
come up with is more imagination than facts.

I'm particularly puzzled by the fact that both of you quickly jumped on
my comment that "This is not an explanation", obviously finding it very
disturbing. But neither one of you seems to have been disturbed at all
by Bill W.'s comment about Bill P. being a "crank". Why was my
comment about Bill W.'s reply not being an explanation an "attack" and
Bill W.'s comment about Bill P. being a "crank" not one?

Sorry, you need to re-read my post. I clearly mentioned Bill, and again, my
post was in response to Bruce G's post and _my_ past experience on CSGnet. I
was _not_ commenting on anything in particular with regard to the economic
thread.

Marc

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.18.1000)]

Marc Abrams (2004.01.17.2355)--

I was responding to Bruce's comment, not anything in particular you
said.

Why respond to Bruce by insulting Bill and me?

You claim you know little about economics and that you have not read
Keen,
so how do you come to the conclusion that Keen did not 'explain' it
properly
or it's not a very good assertion?

I don't believe I have ever claimed that I know little about economics.
Indeed, I think I now know a fair amount about economics. Nor did I
come to the conclusion that Keen did not explain "it" properly (I
presume that by "it" you are referring to my question about why
assuming that aggregates are not made up of identical individuals will
not solve the presumed problem that results from assuming that they
are) . All I did I was ask Bruce Gregory (and, implicitly, anyone else
interested in behavioral modeling, which, I presume, is everyone on
CSGNet since CSG is about behavioral modeling -- look at Richard
Kennaway's beautiful work, for example) whether the problems associated
with assuming that all individuals in the aggregate are the same could
be solved by _not_ assuming this.

Rick, how about bringing some _informed_ comments to the table. You're
certainly capable of doing that.

Thanks for the vote of confidence but apparently I am not capable of
bringing what _you_ think are informed comments to the table. From my
point of view, the comments I brought to the table (about assumptions
regarding the homogeneity of aggregates) were informed. They were
informed by my experience with analyzing aggregate economic data and by
my attempts to build a model of the macro economy. When thinking about
how to develop the Test Bed model, for example, a constant question in
my mind is the appropriate level of resolution of the model. One such
question concerns the distribution of consumer income. Consumer income
is likely to be an important factor in the behavior of the model so the
aggregate consumer must at least be differentiated (treated as
non-homogeneous) along this dimension. But at what level of resolution?
Should the model capture the distribution of income across all
270,000,000 consumers or are some limited number of categories of
income sufficient?

I find it amazing that both you and Bill, supposedely 'experts' on
purposeful
behavior, are clueless when it comes to human interactions.

I do the best I can. I am always trying my to improve my interactions
on the net. I may not be great at it yet but I don't think I'm
completely clueless, either. You might want to take a look at your own
approach to human interactions once you've finished pointing out the
motes in others eyes.

I'm particularly puzzled by the fact that both of you quickly jumped
on
my comment...But neither one of you seems to have been disturbed at
all
by Bill W.'s comment about Bill P. being a "crank".

Sorry, you need to re-read my post. I clearly mentioned Bill

Yes, you mentioned Bill P. in the context of saying that both he and I
attack straw men. My question was why both you and Bruce Gregory were
more disturbed by my comment about Bill's W.s answer to by question
being an "unconvincing assertion" than by Bill W. calling Bill P. a
"crank". Would it have been a better form of human interaction for me
to have called Bill W. a "crank" rather than say that his answer to my
question was an "unconvincing assertion"?

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Shannon Williams (2004.01.18.1300)]

From [Marc Abrams (2004.01.17.2355)]

You claim you know little about economics and that you have not read Keen,
so how do you come to the conclusion that Keen did not 'explain' it
properly or it's not a very good assertion? Based on what?

Rick's conclusions would be based upon your debates. Rick's goal is to
control his perception of you (or your little piece of his world).

Keen is not in this forum, and Rick has no goal associated with him.

I find it amazing that both you and Bill, supposedely 'experts' on
purposeful behavior, are clueless when it comes to
human interactions. I'm not saying this to be hurtful, I'm saying it as an
observation, that you guys might want to look at.

You are saying that you do not share any references with Bill or Rick
regarding human interaction. It seems to you that they disregard the
perceptions that you control for. You could be right.

···

--
Shannon

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.01.18.1325)]

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.18.1000)]

All I did I was ask Bruce Gregory (and, implicitly, anyone else
interested in behavioral modeling, which, I presume, is everyone on
CSGNet since CSG is about behavioral modeling -- look at Richard
Kennaway's beautiful work, for example) whether the problems associated
with assuming that all individuals in the aggregate are the same could
be solved by _not_ assuming this.

Do you really think you are the first person to have asked this
question? Keen addresses and answers it in some detail.

My question was why both you and Bruce Gregory were
more disturbed by my comment about Bill's W.s answer to by question
being an "unconvincing assertion" than by Bill W. calling Bill P. a
"crank". Would it have been a better form of human interaction for me
to have called Bill W. a "crank" rather than say that his answer to my
question was an "unconvincing assertion"?

I'm not disturbed by your comment. I simply suggested that you do a
little research before you arrive at your conclusions. If you find
this suggestion too onerous, it's fine with me. According to _The
American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language_ a crank is, among
other things, "a grouchy person." I'll leave it for you to decide if
this applies to you.

Bruce Gregory

"Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions; everyone is not
entitled to his or her own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."
                                                                                Andre Gide

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.01.18.1327)]

Shannon Williams (2004.01.18.1300)

Keen is not in this forum, and Rick has no goal associated with him.

Would you care to share with us exactly how you arrived at this
conclusion? Thanks.

Bruce Gregory

"Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions; everyone is not
entitled to his or her own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."
                                                                                Andre Gide

[From Shannon Williams (2004.01.18.1300)]

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.01.18.1327)]

Keen is not in this forum, and Rick has no goal associated with him.

Would you care to share with us exactly how you arrived at this
conclusion? Thanks.

Rick is debating you and Marc. Keen is not impacting Rick's perceptions,
YOU are.

You may attribute your actions to 'Keen', so Rick's goal may be to alter
your perception of 'Keen'. But his goal is to alter YOUR perceptions, not
KEEN's.

···

--
Shannon

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.01.18.1418)]

Shannon Williams (2004.01.18.1300)

Rick is debating you and Marc. Keen is not impacting Rick's
perceptions,
YOU are.

Funny, I'm not debating Rick. I simply made what I thought was a modest
suggestion, which Rick is free to adopt or ignore.

You may attribute your actions to 'Keen',

Nope. Keen is an innocent non-bystander.

so Rick's goal may be to alter
your perception of 'Keen'.

How can he do this when he has no idea of what Keen says? Frankly, Keen
knows a hell of lot more about economics than Rick does. On the other
hand, Rick doubtless knows a hell of a lot more about PCT than Keen
does. The essential difference, in my view, is that Keen makes no
claims about understanding PCT.

But his goal is to alter YOUR perceptions, not
KEEN's.

Thank goodness!

Bruce Gregory

"Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions; everyone is not
entitled to his or her own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."
                                                                                Andre Gide

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.18.1130)]

Bruce Gregory (2004.01.18.1325)--

Rick Marken (2004.01.18.1000)]

All I did I was ask Bruce Gregory ...whether the problems associated
with assuming that all individuals in the aggregate are the same could
be solved by _not_ assuming this.

Do you really think you are the first person to have asked this
question?

No, I don't think I am the first person to have asked this question and I never suggested that I was. I think we can ask questions on CSGNet even if others have asked them before.

Keen addresses and answers it in some detail.

That's nice. But I asked _you_ the question about the assumption of homogeneity of aggregates, not Keen.

My question was why both you and Bruce Gregory were
more disturbed by my comment about Bill's W.s answer to by question
being an "unconvincing assertion" than by Bill W. calling Bill P. a
"crank". Would it have been a better form of human interaction for me
to have called Bill W. a "crank" rather than say that his answer to my
question was an "unconvincing assertion"?

I'm not disturbed by your comment. I simply suggested that you do a
little research before you arrive at your conclusions.

What conclusion? I just asked a question, specifically "Can't this be fixed by assuming that that the aggregate entities (producer and consumer) are not made up of individuals that are identical"? The only conclusion I came to was that Bill WIlliams' answer to this question was an unconvincing assertion. Again, this was Bill W.'s answer to my question:

No. This wouldn't help. The search for a "fix" has been going on for more than a century. So far the results have been that a solution for the difficulties of orthodox theory are more remote than they were when the search began late in the 19th century. Now, people are publishing claims that it can be "proved" that no solution is as a matter of math and logic possible.

I don't see how research could change my conclusion that this answer is an unconvincing assertion. It simply asserts that treating aggregate entities as non-homogeneous will not improve macro economic models. This assertion isn't convincing because it doesn't explain why taking things like differences across consumers in terms of income or differences in producers in terms of desired profit margin would not improve the performance of the model. My impression is that taking these non-homogeneities into account could not help but improve the performance of a macro economic model. And data on some of these non-homogeneities (such as income distribution) are readily available and could be readily incorporated as parameters of the model.

According to _The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language_
a crank is, among other things, "a grouchy person." I'll leave it for you to decide
if this applies to you.

Actually, the word was applied to Bill, not me. But I have decided that it applies to neither of us...usually.

Apparently you believe that leaving the decision as to whether a word like "crank" or "kite" applies to a person removes the insult. Therefore, I feel comfortable pointing out that, according to my _Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 3rd Edition_, an asshole is, among other things, a "stupid, incompetent, or detestable person". I'll leave it for you to decide if this applies to you.

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.01.18.1445)]

Rick Marken (2004.01.18.1130)

I don't see how research could change my conclusion that this answer
is an unconvincing assertion. It simply asserts that treating
aggregate entities as non-homogeneous will not improve macro economic
models. This assertion isn't convincing because it doesn't explain
why taking things like differences across consumers in terms of income
or differences in producers in terms of desired profit margin would
not improve the performance of the model. My impression is that taking
these non-homogeneities into account could not help but improve the
performance of a macro economic model. And data on some of these
non-homogeneities (such as income distribution) are readily available
and could be readily incorporated as parameters of the model.

Great. Do it.

According to _The American Heritage Dictionary of the English
Language_
a crank is, among other things, "a grouchy person." I'll leave it for
you to decide
if this applies to you.

Actually, the word was applied to Bill, not me. But I have decided
that it applies to neither of us...usually.

Apparently you believe that leaving the decision as to whether a word
like "crank" or "kite" applies to a person removes the insult.

Kite? I'd be puzzled but not offended if someone called me a kite.

Therefore, I feel comfortable pointing out that, according to my
_Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 3rd Edition_, an asshole is,
among other things, a "stupid, incompetent, or detestable person".
I'll leave it for you to decide if this applies to you.

Do you really see no difference between "grouchy" and "asshole"? I'm
embarrassed for you. Didn't your mother teach you anything? If not,
just try to remember Thumper's father's advice.

Bruce Gregory

Best regards

Rick
---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

"Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions; everyone is not
entitled to his or her own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."
                                                                                Andre Gide

From [Marc Abrams (2004.01.18.1424)]

[From Shannon Williams (2004.01.18.1300)]

Rick is debating you and Marc. Keen is not impacting Rick's perceptions,
YOU are.

Sorry, Rick is 'debating' a ghost or strawman. I simply made an observation
and comment. I'll stick with both and move on, There is nothing to 'debate'.

I do appreciate your attempted input though.

Marc

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.18.1205)]

Bruce Gregory (2004.01.18.1418)--

Shannon Williams (2004.01.18.1300)

Rick is debating you and Marc. Keen is not impacting Rick's
perceptions, YOU are.

Funny, I'm not debating Rick.

That is funny.

Frankly, Keen knows a hell of lot more about economics than
Rick does.

Can you do nothing but insult?

How about some substantive comments on the Test Bed as described in
Bill Powers (2004.01.15.1314 MST).

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.18.1220)]

Bruce Gregory (2004.01.18.1445)--

Apparently you believe that leaving the decision as to whether a word
like "crank" or "kite" applies to a person removes the insult.

Kite? I'd be puzzled but not offended if someone called me a kite.

See Bill's allusion to the J.D. Salinger story in Bill Powers
(2004.01.17.1707 EST). The point was that "the intent of name-calling
can be understood as hostile even if the recipient doesn't quite know
what the name means".

Do you really see no difference between "grouchy" and "asshole"?

Not in terms of the intent of the name calling.

Best regards

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken
marken@mindreadings.com
Home 310 474-0313
Cell 310 729-1400

[From Bruce Gregory (2004.01.18.1535)]

Rick Marken (2004.01.18.1205)

Frankly, Keen knows a hell of lot more about economics than
Rick does.

Can you do nothing but insult?

I'm sorry. I apologize. I had no idea you had a Ph.D. in economics.
What was the title of your thesis? Any publications in the economics
literature?

How about some substantive comments on the Test Bed as described in
Bill Powers (2004.01.15.1314 MST).

Sorry, I don't even pretend to know that much economics. I'll leave it
you experts.

Bruce Gregory

"Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions; everyone is not
entitled to his or her own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."
                                                                                Andre Gide

[From Bruce Gregory 92004.01.18.1540)]

[From Rick Marken (2004.01.18.1220)]

Bruce Gregory (2004.01.18.1445)--

Apparently you believe that leaving the decision as to whether a word
like "crank" or "kite" applies to a person removes the insult.

Kite? I'd be puzzled but not offended if someone called me a kite.

See Bill's allusion to the J.D. Salinger story in Bill Powers
(2004.01.17.1707 EST). The point was that "the intent of name-calling
can be understood as hostile even if the recipient doesn't quite know
what the name means".

Was it my tone of voice?

Do you really see no difference between "grouchy" and "asshole"?

Not in terms of the intent of the name calling.

I can't believe that you believe that. Suppose I called you testy,
would that be equivalent in your view?

Bruce Gregory

"Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions; everyone is not
entitled to his or her own facts."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no
one was listening, everything must be said again."
                                                                                Andre Gide

[Martin Taylor 2004.01.18.1546 EST]

"Godwin 's Law

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. "

From <http://www.edge.org/q2004/q04_print.html>

It's a corollary of the conflict theorem of PCT, isn't it? A is
controlling for B's perceptin of B's actions or personality to be the
same as A's perceptin of those variables, whereas B has a different
reference level for those same variables--and symmetrically,
substituting B for A and vice-versa.

It's not a winnable pair of conflicts. So why bother?

Martin