B:CP Chapter 13

David Goldstein (2013.10.10:10:02)

Dear listmates:

Chapter 13 is a long chapter and finishes discussing the hierarchy. We will be taking two weeks to go through it.

I suggest that each of you think of an activity that you do, and apply the perceptual levels

to the activity.

I am sending you one for the activity of tennis which I do.

The Game of Tennis
from a PCT view Showing the Levels

System—Playing tennis is more consistent with who I am as a
person than alternatives (e.g., golf, bowling, swimming, etc.)

Principle—Have fun; get exercise; socialize.

Program—Run to where the ball is; hit the appropriate shot
((forehand, backhand, volley); keep the ball over the net and within the other person’s
court.

Sequence—Follow the steps for hitting the appropriate shot.

Category—Is my shot in or out? Is my opponentâ’s shot in or
out? What kind of forehand, or backhand should I hit?

Relationship—Am I where the baall is? Is my body the right
distance from the ball when I stroke it?

Event—The motion of hitting a forehhand (backhand) from the
beginning to the end.

Transition—Hitting a stroke with the right acceleration
(slow to fast).

Configuration—GGrip on the tennis racket; body pose before
you start the stroke.

Sensation—Tightness of grip; Sound of tthe racket hitting the
ball; sight of the ball.

Intensity—Trying hard.

David

[Martin Taylor 2013.10.10.11.11]

David,

I wonder about your lowest level.

Isn't this is a perception of your own output, or rather, of the

output of a rather high-level system–IÂ suggest Principle?
“Intensity” seems to be used here as a metaphor, rather than as the
descriptor of the lowest level perceptual input functions. I would
have thought that a better couple of examples of intensity might be
such things as the brightness of the ball in the air, or of the
court surface, or the loudness of the sound of the ball as it
bounces, etc. ad nauseam.
Martin

···

David Goldstein (2013.10.10:10:02)

      I am

sending you one for the activity of tennis which I do.


Intensity—Trying hard.

David Goldstein (2013.10.10:11:39)
[Martin Taylor 2013.10.10.11.11]

You are probably right.

I was thinking of the physical effort that I made. When I try too hard my muscles are tight and I can’t move my arm in the right way. If I am too

relaxed, that is not good either. Also, there is emotional intensity. Too much or too little is not good.

David

···

From: Martin Taylor mmt-csg@MMTAYLOR.NET
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: B:CP Chapter 13

[Martin Taylor 2013.10.10.11.11]

David,

I wonder about your lowest level.

David Goldstein (2013.10.10:10:02)

      I am

sending you one for the activity of tennis which I do.


Intensity—Trying hard.

Isn't this is a perception of your own output, or rather, of the

output of a rather high-level system–I suggest Principle?

"Intensity" seems to be used here as a metaphor, rather than as the

descriptor of the lowest level perceptual input functions. I would
have thought that a better couple of examples of intensity might be
such things as the brightness of the ball in the air, or of the
court surface, or the loudness of the sound of the ball as it
bounces, etc. ad nauseam.

Martin

[Martin Taylor 2013.10.11.00.21]

David,
···

Clearly we are talking about a perception, because you perceive
yourself to be trying hard. But isn’t “trying” a key word in PCT?
Whenever we say we are “trying” to do something, we are not at
that moment achieving whatever we are “trying” to achieve. That
means we must have a reference value, and what we are “trying” to
do is to bring a perception to that level. So “Trying hard” is not
just a perception, but also something else. But what else? In
itself “trying hard” doesn’t have a target – what it is you are
trying hard to achieve. Perhaps “trying hard” is a reference value
at the principle level, but what the output does is change the
gains of systems involved in controlling the game-relevant
perceptions?

  A "gain control" kind of connection has been hinted at many times

in my two decades on CSGnet, but it is not part of the strict HPCT
hierarchy. It would, however, lead to the physical effects you
mention, of being too tight or too loosey-goosey.

  If there is such a word, the above is just a ponderment.

  Martin

David Goldstein (2013.10.10:11:39)

      [Martin Taylor 2013.10.10.11.11]
      You are

probably right.

      I was

thinking of the physical effort that I made. When I try too
hard my muscles are tight and I can’t move my arm in the right
way. If I am too

      relaxed,

that is not good either. Also, there is emotional intensity.
Too much or too little is not good.

David


From: Martin
Taylor Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:22 AM
Re: B:CP Chapter 13

[Martin Taylor 2013.10.10.11.11]

              David,



              I wonder about your lowest level.

David Goldstein (2013.10.10:10:02)

                    I

am sending you one for the activity of tennis
which I do.


Intensity—Trying
hard.

              Isn't this is a perception of your own output, or

rather, of the output of a rather high-level
system–I suggest Principle?

              "Intensity" seems to be used here as a metaphor,

rather than as the descriptor of the lowest level
perceptual input functions. I would have thought that
a better couple of examples of intensity might be such
things as the brightness of the ball in the air, or of
the court surface, or the loudness of the sound of the
ball as it bounces, etc. ad nauseam.

              Martin

mmt-csg@MMTAYLOR.NET
**To:**CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Sent:
Subject:

[Rupert Young (2013.10.12 15:00 BST)]

My activity is Salsa dancing

System— I like the Cuban/Latin American ethos of joie de vivre, being laid back, cool, the vibrancy of the music, the lack of rigid rules; things not necessarily associated with other forms of dance. Also have sympathies with the plight of the Cuban people and have sympathies with the Cuban system, of the emphasis on community and social policy rather than selfish consumerism and capitalism (you know who you are!)

Principle—Exercise, socialise, control positive state of mind that results from dancing well (being in the zone), image of self as dancer.

Program— choosing whether to dance according to music track, choice of dance move

Sequence— steps and hand movements within a dance move.

Category— Type of dance move, could be Cuban style of New York style.

Relationship—keeping movements within time to the music, e.g. stepping on the beat
Event— steps, turns, spins.
Transition— changing body weight from one leg to other, changing direction of movement, lifting or dropping hands.
Configuration— position of hands for moves, configuration of fingers for suitable hand grip.

Sensation— feeling of "connection" with partner, whether free flowing or inflexible, can control with choice of moves, or partner. Body balance.

Intensity— Pressure, for resistance, of hand and fingers against partner's hand and fingers for optimum way to lead partner in dance.
The above controlled variables, as with David's I think, are those of which we can be consciously aware. There are many variables, at multiple levels, of which we are not aware but nevertheless are being controlled.
Â

Leading questions:
1. Not a lot. Sounds to me like relationship changes are transitions, and event changes are sequences.
2. Loads, e.g. book on table. Not really because attention works serially.
3. Lacking strategy?
4. Dealing a pack of cards
5. If bin contains one or more beans pick up a bean and put in small jar, else stop. (Yes, would need one operation per bean).
6. Requires a choice point, that is, detecting the condition of the exception and acting differently then the normal rule would indicate.
7. Yes, poverty may mean survival is a priority and there is more inclination to steal. Or dealing with insurance claims honesty tends to be less rigorous (not me of course) as consequences to victims appear less obvious.
8. All of them? Such a principle under control might be blasphemy, which if transgressed may result in a program of actions to eliminate (literally) the blasphemer.Â
9. Awareness of danger. Look before you leap.
10. Question isn't clear. If the reference is "I don't know what's wrong with me" then doing nothing will achieve that. If the reference is "what's wrong with me" then a program of investigation, which may include going to the doctor, should achieve the goal.
11. Both are concepts, the first is objective and the second subjective. Error, or denial of evidence. Action to oppose.
12. Those who against universal health care may identify as tea drinkers.
13. Yes, loyalty to country and loyalty justice, which may be in conflict.
14. Morality. ? Politics. ?
15. a. increased effort to co-operate with others. b. Off to the Gulag.

Regards,
Rupert

David Goldstein (2013.10.10:10:02)
Dear listmates:
Chapter 13 is a long chapter and finishes discussing the hierarchy. We will be taking two weeks to go through it.

I suggest that each of you think of an activity that you do, and apply the perceptual levels

to the activity.

I am sending you one for the activity of tennis which I do.
The Game of Tennis from a PCT view Showing the Levels

System—Playing tennis is more consistent with who I am as a person than alternatives (e.g., golf, bowling, swimming, etc.)
Principle—Have fun; get exercise; socialize.
Program—Run to where the ball is; hit the appropriate shot (forehand, backhand, volley); keep the ball over the net and within the other person’s court.
Sequence—Follow the steps for hitting the appropriate shot.
Category—Is my shot in or out? Is my opponent’s shot in or out? What kind of forehand, or backhand should I hit?
Relationship—Am I where the ball is? Is my body the right distance from the ball when I stroke it?
Event—The motion of hitting a forehand (backhand) from the beginning to the end.
Transition—Hitting a stroke with the right acceleration (slow to fast).
Configuration—Grip on the tennis racket; body pose before you start the stroke.
Sensation—Tightness of grip; Sound of the racket hitting the ball; sight of the ball.
Intensity—Trying hard.
Â
David

···

On 10/10/2013 15:09, D GOLDSTEIN wrote: