# Basic HPCT (was Re: Evolution of higher)

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/basic-hpct-was-re-evolution-of-higher/1568>\
**Category:** CSG2000\
**Created:** [December 20, 2000, 10:40pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/basic-hpct-was-re-evolution-of-higher/1568 "2000-12-20T22:40:11Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 7\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [December 20, 2000, 10:40pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/basic-hpct-was-re-evolution-of-higher/1568/1 "2000-12-20T22:40:11Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2000.12.20.1440)]

Bruce Gregory (2000.1220.1600) --

> You seem to have overlooked the possibility that order  
> is a controlled variable whose reference level can be  
> altered by the system controlling for respecting the student.  
> Perhaps your model does not allow for this level of  
> complexity.

"My model" is HPCT. It certainly allows for the possibility that  
the reference for order in the classroom can be altered as the  
means of controlling a higher level variable, such as respect  
for the student. You seem to have overlooked the fact that just  
because the reference for a controlled variable, such as classroom  
order, can be altered as the means of controlling some other  
perception, such as respect, doesn't mean that that controlled  
variable is not a controlled variable.

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> --  
> Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313  
> MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com  
> www.mindreadings.com

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory)\
**Post date:** [December 20, 2000, 10:59pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/basic-hpct-was-re-evolution-of-higher/1568/2 "2000-12-20T22:59:47Z")

</div>

[Bruce Gregory (2000.1220.1800)]

> Rick Marken (2000.12.20.1440)
> 
> You seem to have overlooked the fact that just  
> because the reference for a controlled variable, such as classroom  
> order, can be altered as the means of controlling some other  
> perception, such as respect, doesn't mean that that controlled  
> variable is not a controlled variable.

Wrong. I never made that claim, nor do I believe it to be true.

BG

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [December 20, 2000, 11:36pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/basic-hpct-was-re-evolution-of-higher/1568/3 "2000-12-20T23:36:45Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2000.12.20.1540)]

Me:

> You seem to have overlooked the fact that just because the  
> reference for a controlled variable, such as classroom  
> order, can be altered as the means of controlling some other  
> perception, such as respect, doesn't mean that that controlled  
> variable is not a controlled variable.

Bruce Gregory (2000.1220.1800)--

> Wrong. I never made that claim, nor do I believe it to be  
> true.

That's great. But then what was the point of saying:

> You seem to have overlooked the possibility that order is  
> a controlled variable whose reference level can be altered  
> by the system controlling for respecting the student

You said this in response to my question to Bill:

> ...Do you really think it is an "oversimplification" to say  
> that teachers are controlling for order in the class when  
> they \_are\_?

The implication of your answer [Bruce Gregory (2000.1220.1800)]  
(to me, anyway) was that the notion that teachers control  
for order was an oversimplification because the reference  
for order could be varied by the reference for respect. If  
that's not what you were saying, then I presume that we can  
agree that there is a rather substantial amount of evidence  
that teachers -- even RTP teachers -- control for order in  
their classes, among other things.

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> --  
> Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313  
> MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com  
> www.mindreadings.com

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory8](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory8](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory8)\
**Post date:** [December 21, 2000, 1:01am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/basic-hpct-was-re-evolution-of-higher/1568/4 "2000-12-21T01:01:23Z")

</div>

[Bruce Gregory (2000.1220.2000)]

> Rick Marken (2000.12.20.1540)
> 
> The implication of your answer [Bruce Gregory (2000.1220.1800)]  
> (to me, anyway) was that the notion that teachers control  
> for order was an oversimplification because the reference  
> for order could be varied by the reference for respect. If  
> that's not what you were saying, then I presume that we can  
> agree that there is a rather substantial amount of evidence  
> that teachers -- even RTP teachers -- control for order in  
> their classes, among other things.

Do you actually believe that is a controversial point? That anyone believes  
that teachers do not control for order in their classrooms? How singular.  
No wonder you keep making the same points over and over and over again.

BG.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [December 21, 2000, 4:21am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/basic-hpct-was-re-evolution-of-higher/1568/5 "2000-12-21T04:21:58Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2000.12.20.2020)]

Me:

> I presume that we can agree that there is a rather substantial  
> amount of evidence that teachers -- even RTP teachers -- control  
> for order in their classes, among other things.

Bruce Gregory (2000.1220.2000)--

> Do you actually believe that is a controversial point?

It seemed to be somewhat controversial to you and Bruce Nevin.  
But if it's not, that great. But then why the death threats  
[Bruce Gregory (2000.1220.1345)]?

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> --
> 
> Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313  
> Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com  
> mindreadings.com

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory8](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory8](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory8)\
**Post date:** [December 21, 2000, 10:11am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/basic-hpct-was-re-evolution-of-higher/1568/6 "2000-12-21T10:11:08Z")

</div>

[From Bruce Gregory (2000.1221.0509)]

> Rick Marken (2000.12.20.2020)]
> 
> It seemed to be somewhat controversial to you and Bruce Nevin.  
> But if it's not, that great. But then why the death threats  
> [Bruce Gregory (2000.1220.1345)]?

I was expressing a wee bit of frustration. I apologize if I seemed hostile.  
I only wish your insight into classroom practice matched your insight into  
political practice. But I realize that would be asking a lot. In the coming  
year I'll confine myself to reading your political posts. Happy holidays!

BG

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![bnhpct](http://discourse.iapct.org/user_avatar/discourse.iapct.org/bnhpct/32/34_2.png) [@bnhpct](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/bnhpct)\
**Post date:** [December 21, 2000, 7:33pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/basic-hpct-was-re-evolution-of-higher/1568/7 "2000-12-21T19:33:38Z")

</div>

[From Bruce Nevin (2000.12.21 11:33 EST)]

Rick Marken (2000.12.20.2020)--

> **···**
>
> At 08:21 PM 12/20/2000 -0800, Rick Marken wrote:
> 
> > \>[...] RTP teachers -- control  
> > \> for order in their classes, among other things.
> > 
> > Bruce Gregory (2000.1220.2000)--
> > 
> > \> Do you actually believe that is a controversial point?
> > 
> > It seemed to be somewhat controversial to you and Bruce Nevin.
> 
> Wierd.
> 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Bruce Nevin