Behavioural Illusion

CSGnet Archive CSG2017
21

Hi Fred and Bruce

···

From: Bruce Abbott [mailto:bbabbott@frontier.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 11:47 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Behavioural Illusion

[From Bruce Abbott (2017.10.18.1745 EDT)]

Fred Nickols (2017.10.18.1532 ET) –

Pardon me for jumping in here, Bruce, but I have some questions about a couple of your statements below

BA : CV is the environmental variable (or combination of environmental variables) that constitute the input quantity (qi) to the perceptual input function. The output of the latter is the perceptual signal.

HB : If CV (controlled variable) is environmental variable, how can it be turned into perceptual signal without transfering control into it ?

FN: If CV and qi are interchangeable terms, then I get the statement above.

HB : Only few % of Bills literature holds that there could be »controlled variable« in outer environment and I think it’s more in the interchangable meaning with »controlled quantity«. Most of Bills’ literature holds that there is »input quantity« or »controlled quantity« or »added effects of disturbances and output« on input (not controlled effects) and speccially important is that they are meant »to be controlled«. So if we are scientific we have to beleive most of of Bills literature what PCT is. There are many PhD members here and I beleive they respect science. At least statistical interpretation.

All diagrams and definitions are without »controlled variable« or any »control« process in environment of organism.

If you put »controlled variable« into outer environment in the sense of »controlled effects« to »i.q.« how it is controlled ? With »control of behavior« or Telekinesis ? Somehow environment has to be controlled if there exist some »controlled variable« in the meaning that something is controlled outside as Rick is proposing and now Martin ?

FN: In the glossary of B:CP (2nd Edition), here’s how Bill defined »Controlled Quantity – An environmentaal variable corresponding to the perceptual signal in a control systems; a physical quantity (or a function of several physical quantities) that is affected and controlled by the outputs from a control system’s output function.« So, it would seem that Bill was saying that we do indeed control environmental variables, not just our perceptions of them. Do I have that correct?

BA: That’s certainly the way I see it.

HB : Bruce has of course right to see whatever he wants. But think Fred what »controlled quantity« means :

Bill P (LCS I):

The Living Control System of this kind must sense the controlled quantity in each dimenssion in which the quantity is to be controlled; this implies the inner model of the quantity in the form of a signal or set of signals.

Bill P (B:CP) : Consider once again the meaning of the term controlled quantity. A controlled quantity is controlled only because it is detected by a control system, compared with a reference, and affected by outputs based on the error thus detected. The controlled quantity is defined strictly by the behaving system’s perceptual computers; it may or may not be identifiable as an objective (need I put in quotes?) property of, or entity in, the physical environment. In general an observer will not, therefore, be able to see what a control system is controlling.

HB : As I see it »controlled quantity« is imagined construct which can’t »in general« be seen by an observer. So neither of us can’t tell what »controlled quantiy« in environment of organism is. And speccially whether it is controlled or not.Â

And Bill in upper definition of »controlled quantity« which you presented didn’t explicitly defined what enviroment means. In any PCT diagram you’ll find two environments. Internal and external. And defitnion of control says

Bill P (B:CP):

CONTROL : Achievement and maintenance of a preselected state in the controlling system, through actions on the environment that also cancel the effects of disturbances.

HB : It’s obviously that internal environment is controlled and external affected. It’s because any defitnion in PCT has to be in accordance with each other. Non of isolated defitnitons of »affecting and controlling« can’t be individual evidence that is telling the main point of PCT. You always have to compare it with PCT diagrams and other definitoons.

So your explanations of PCT »controlled quantity« is not »corresponding« to what is written in PCT literature about definition of control and »controlled quantiy«. You tried to excract only what was usefull to your explanation of »controlled variable«. But one swallow does not bring Spring.

The problem with defitnion of »controlled quantity« is that Bill didn’t specify what environment means. And we know from other PCT and diagrams that there are two environments and at least two outpus : one in organism and one in outer space.Â

.

So you have to put »definition« above into comparison with other PCT defintiions of »control loop« to see how they match. There shouldn’t be any contradiction.

Bill P (B:CP):

  1.  OUTPUT FUNCTION : The portion of a system that converts the magnitude or state of a signal inside the system into a corresponding set of effects on the immediate environment of the system

Bill P (LCS III):…the output function shown in it’s own box representts the means this system has for causing changes in it’s environment.

Bill P (LCS III):

  1.   FEED-BACK FUNCTION : The box represents the set of physical laws, properties, arrangements, linkages, by which the action of this system feeds-back to affect its own input, the controlled variable. That's what feed-back means : it's an effect of a system's output on it's own input.

Bill P (B:CP) :

  1.  INPUT FUNCTION : The portion of a system that receives  signals or stimuli from outside the system, and generates a perceptual signal that is some function of the received signals or stimuli.

Bill P (B:CP) :

  1.  COMPARATOR : The portion of control system that computes the magnitude and direction of mismatch between perceptual and reference signal.

Bill P (B:CP)

  1.   : ERROR : The discrepancy between a perceptual signal and a reference signal, which drives a control system’s output function. The discrepancy between a controlled quantity and it’s present reference level, which causes observable behavior.

Bill P (B:CP) :

  1.  ERROR SIGNAL : A signal indicating the magnitude and direction of error.

HB : All these definitions are in harmony. They are showing that there is no »Control of behavior«, no »controlled effects« to environment and there is no »Controlled perception«.

So you see that Bill defined whole functioning of organism in outer environment with high level of accordance. PCT definitions match with each other. Defitnions show no trace of control in outer environment…

So there is no control in outer environment in PCT if you want to be in accrodance to all Bills’ definitions and diagrams.Â

Or if you want that your hierarhichal perceptions should be »corresponding« to PCT literature as Martin-Kent-Eetu idea is to show how transformations from real reality to perception is happening in the case how members read PCT literature.

I think that all members on CSGnet show logical truth of life. Nobody can perceive correspondance to reality, because people are constructing, modeling reality in their hierarchy as. Constructivists show and Bill with his »model« discussion…

Discussions on CSGnet inevitably show the »fact« that oppinions of members on CSGnet and other guest do not correspond to PCT literature (real reality). If they don’t correspond they are belonging to other theories and »corresponding« perceptions.

People are adding imagination to actual and past perceptions as Bruce Nevin started to explore. Sometimes it’s hard to say what is real perception and what is »imagination adds«.

Bruce Nevins’ explorations are good direction on the way to understand PCT.

.Â

BA: Where the perceptual signal depends only on a single environmental variable, then it is correct to say that both the perception and the environmental variable are being controlled by the control system.

BH : Sorry Bruce. It’s not correct according to PCT diagrams and defitnitions. Show me where do you see what you are saying in PCT diagrams and definitions. ??? Why your hierarchical perceptions do not »correspond« to PCT definitions and diagrams ?

Only perception inside orgsnism is controlled. What is controlling CV outside organism ? Or how »the environmental variable are being controlled by the control system«. With »Control of behavior« or Telekinesis ???  Bill used »output effects« to environment and »Input quantity«. Why don’t you use this term ? The only controlled variable in PCT is »perceptual signal, which is to be controlled in comparator. That is only place in whole control loop where control is happening. Other parts of control loop are just supporting to control inside organism. Â

BA : In a car’s cruise control, for example, the car’s speed is estimated from the rpm of the drive shaft.

HB : It’s estimated from perception of the drive shaft. Whatever you see. It can be estimated onÄ?ly from perception. Whatever it’s transformation to perceptual signal to person which perceive.Â

BA : This rpm is the controlled environmental quantity.

HB : You said before that it’s »Controlled variable« now you are talking about »environmental controlled quantity«. There is a big difference between »controlled variable« and »controlled quantity« if you put it this way.

BA : Drive shaft rpm is converted by the control system to a voltage that is proportional to rpm – this voltage is the controlled perception.

HB : Now we are in the place where Rick is with it’s RCT. »Controlled perception« ???!!! Term that was never used by Bill.

You and Rick inventied it. There is no »controlled perception« in PCT. Control is not entering from outside envrionment to inside. through perceptual signal. Do you want maybe to say that »controlled perception« is controlled in comaprator.

Bill P (B:CP) :

COMPARATOR : The portion of control system that computes the magnitude and direction of mismatch between perceptual and reference signal.

HB : It’s mishmatch between »perceptual signal« and »reference signal«. Not »mismatch« between »controlled perception« and reference signal » How can be something controlled twice in »control loop« ?

Show me where Bill ever used such a term as »controlled percpetion« ? And show me how »controlled perception« is entering comparator ??? Maybe you could use also some physiological evidences.

Can you answer me aslo if you agree with RCT (Ricks Control Theory) :

RCT (Ricks Control Theory) definition of control loop

  1.   CONTROL : Keeping of some »aspect of outer environment« in reference state, protected (defended) from disturbances.

  2. OUTPUT FUNCTION : controlled effects (control of behavior) to outer environment so to keep some »controlled variable« in reference state

  3.  FEED-BACK FUNCTION : »Control« of some »aspect of outer environment« in reference state.

  4.  INPUT FUNCTION : produce »Controlled Perceptual Variable« or »Controlled Perception«, the perceptual correlate of »controlled q.i.«

  5.  COMPARATOR : ????

  6.  ERROR SIGNAL : ???

HB : Do you agree with this ?

Bruce I understand that Bill changed his mind on occasion. And maybe caused some confussion.

But the core of PCT theory can be explicitly found in at least 90 % of his literature, definitions and diagrams. You are a scientist. Respectful PhD profesor. Stattistically you should beleive to 90 % events not 10 %. 90 % of Bills’ literature is rightly explaining what is happening in orgaism and arround him. Generally organism controls with affecting environment arround and »controlling perception« which enable control inside organism. We need theory that can explain all behaviors not just some of them.  And that is by my oppinion PCT.

Boris

BA: In some cases, however, the perceptual signal is a function of two or more environmental variables. In that case there exists no single controlled quantity in the environment that corresponds to the perceptual signal. Instead, the controlled quantity is that combination of environmental variables that determines the perceptual signal, as defined by the input function. For example, a receiver system may be attempting to maintain a certain signal to noise ratio. That ratio depends on both the signal intensity and the noise intensity, both of which are environmental variables. A third variable corresponding to the ratio of the two does not exist in the environment. The control system’s perceptual signal is computed in the input function by sensing the signal and the noise, taking their ratio, and multiplying by a conversion factor to convert the levels of these physical variables to an internal representation, the perceptual signal. The controlled quantity in the environment is the ratio of the two environmental variables.

Bruce