categorizing other people in view of their actions

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2007.01.14,11:00 EUST)]

From Rick Marken (2007.01.13.1040)

how would knowing how a control system works have
helped a

nice, decent German citizen in 1939 when his
neighbours had all elected

an evil, well intentioned lunatic (like Bush) to
be their leader?

The election was an action. One effect of the election
you refer to was that Hitler became their leader. Other effects were disastrous.
But it is too easy, and I think it is wrong, to say that the disastrous effects
were an effect of the “neighbours” election.

A decent German citizen who knew how a control system
work (this is a language game because nobody knew a bout control systems at that
time) would in 1933 say that the way his “neighbours” elected may have
different effects it is impossible to forecast.

The
same decent German citizen would also say that his “neighbours” intended to
perceive many, very many different perceptions when they elected in 1933. He
would say that also he could intend to perceive something that lead to his vote
for NSDAP, but other intentions had a stronger gain.

It
doesn’t fit in with PCT to think that people plan effects of their actions in
1933 to happen in 1942. If anybody says that somebody walking from their home
to the election room planned to vote for NSDAP, he could be correct. But at the
same time something happened at higher levels leading to the reference “I wish
to vote for NSDAP”. And it is very problematic, I think impossible, to describe
what happened at those higher levels.

My
conclusion is that people who know PCT have a reason for not categorizing other
people viewed in the light of their actions.

bjorn

[From Bill Powers (2007.01.14.0330 MST)]
Hilton head is nice and warm. Not like Denver.
Bjorn Simonsen (2007.01.14,11:00 EUST)-
Bjorn, I think you are placing theory above observation. What is most
real to us is the world we perceive. Everything else is judged by
comparison with what we can observe. If a theory says we should see a
certain meter reading, and we do not, and there is no mistake, then the
theory is wrong. To say that perception is wrong because the theory must
be right is to believe more in imagination than in direct experience.
That’s a basic mistake – of course lots of people make it, like
physicists, but it’s still a mistake. If we don’t believe our own
experiences (aside from believing what we think and say about them) then
experimental science becomes impossible. If we don’t accept that the
meter reading is what it appears to be, there is no way to test any
theory.
This still doesn’t require us to believe that the world is exactly the
way we experience it, or even approximately like it. But theory says that
our experiences are derived from the real world by physical means, our
perceptual input functions, and so are perfectly real although they
are (at present) an unknown but perhaps not unknowable function of what
is out there. If we dismiss perceptions as having nothing to do with
reality, saying “Oh, that’s only a perception,” we are
also dismissing meter readings and all other scientific data, which of
course negates the very theory that says our experiences are simply
arbitrary perceptions. The one thing forbidden to rational thought is
self-contradiction.
It’s no small task to untangle the properties of human perception from
the properties we assume belong to the real world. Physicists who think
they are observing Reality Itself are still very confused about the
nature of perception and the role it plays in presenting us with an
observable world. Schroedinger’s Cat will be seen some day as a clumsy
joke, or simply an analogy too full of holes to believe (exactly when is
a cat “dead”? What if the observer imagines or
believes that the cat is dead when it is only asleep or
unconscious? What exactly constitutes an observation?).

The only solid ground on which we can stand is direct experience. The
theoretical proposition that it is experience of neural signals in our
brains does not make it any less real.The television producer watching
screens in a control room has every reason to believe that the pictures
come from a camera somewhere that is converting some part of reality,
even on the other side of the world or on another planet, into the kind
of images we can see on a television set, and which look to us quite like
what we would see if we were standing where the camera is. We have every
reason to believe that at the lowest level, the world outside us is
imaged by a lens that forms a picture on the retina, which is then
relayed into the brain. We could still be missing something, but that
inference appears to be pretty stable for now. As we look at higher and
higher levels of experience derived from arrays of intensities, for
example colors or shapes or movements or relationships, we have more
uncertainty about any connection to corresponding organizations outside
us. but that doesn’t say we must remain ignorant about that connection
forever.

Also, of course, we must remain alert to the difference between what we
actually experience as a result of external inputs and what we experience
intentionally, in imagination, as we manufacture perceptual signals
inside the brain. It’s not self-evident what comes from inside and what
comes from outside. We’re constantly testing to see if an appearance is
“real”, meaning testing whether it’s determined by something on
the other side of our sensors, or is being supplied by our own brains
filling in what is not actually being experienced in real time. Is that a
UFO or is it a blemish in the windowpane? Open the window and look again.
Is the crossbar of the T really shorter than the stem? Turn the T on its
side. Testing isn’t hard.

Through all of this, every experience and every test of experience is
observed directly, and rationality cannot reject the reality of the
experience. We can doubt anything we say or deduce about any experience,
but we can’t doubt that the experience is occurring. If we reject the
reality of experience, then we automatically reject the reality of the
rejection, because that is an experience, too. It is impossible to doubt
real experience in general because that doubt is an experience which
instantly refutes itself.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bjorn Simonsen (2007.01.14,18:15EUST)]

From Bill Powers (2007.01.14.0330 MST)

Thank you for spending (I was near to write
so much time, but maybe the text just followed your fingers on the keyboard) time
on comments to me. I really appreciate that. But I will read your mail twice
and three times before I comment it. I already now know I will comment it.

I could not see the connexion between the
crux in my “Bjorn Simonsen (2007.01.14,11:00 EUST)”

My conclusion is that people who know PCT have
a reason for not categorizing other people viewed in
the light of their actions.

and your
comments. But it will come.

I saw a better
connexion between my “From Bjorn Simonsen (2007.01.14,12:20 EUST)” and
your comment. There I asked Rick:” May I ask you to explain what life is and
why it is not just a dream?”.

bjorn

···

[From Rick Marken (2007.01.14.1100)]

Bjorn Simonsen (2007.01.14,11:00 EUST)--

Rick Marken (2007.01.13.1040)

how would knowing how a control system works have helped a nice, decent German citizen in 1939 when his neighbours had all elected an evil, well intentioned lunatic (like Bush) to be their leader?

The election was an action. One effect of the election you refer to was that Hitler became their leader. Other effects were disastrous. But it is too easy, and I think it is wrong, to say that the disastrous effects were an effect of the �neighbours� election.

A decent German citizen who knew how a control system work (this is a language game because nobody knew a bout control systems at that time) would in 1933 say that the way his �neighbours� elected may have different effects it is impossible to forecast.

This doesn't seem like a great thing to have known given the catastrophe that eventually occurred.

The same decent German citizen would also say that his �neighbours� intended to perceive many, very many different perceptions when they elected in 1933. He would say that also he could intend to perceive something that lead to his vote for NSDAP, but other intentions had a stronger gain.

That would have been such a help to my great grandparents

It doesn�t fit in with PCT to think that people plan effects of their actions in 1933 to happen in 1942. If anybody says that somebody walking from their home to the election room planned to vote for NSDAP, he could be correct. But at the same time something happened at higher levels leading to the reference �I wish to vote for NSDAP�. And it is very problematic, I think impossible, to describe what happened at those higher levels.

I'm sure the same is true for the people who voted for Bush. But you are missing my point entirely. Anyone in the US with half a brain could have seen, when he was first running for President, that Bush was an ignorant, shallow, callow moron: I could see it, as could my wife and kids and all my friends. We knew that if Bush got elected it would be a disaster, though I admit we all had somewhat different ideas about the form the disaster would take. My point was that my family and friends were in the same position as many Germans back in 1935 or so who could see that Hitler would be the same kind of disaster then as Bush is today. My question was about how knowing control system theory could have helped people like us when the majority elects the disaster. My implicit answer is _it can't_. Your answer is:

My conclusion is that people who know PCT have a reason for not categorizing other people viewed in the light of their actions.

So you say knowing PCT will keep us from categorizing people. That doesn't seem like it would be great news for the millions who died in Hilter's ovens or for the thousands killed and maimed in Bush's war on terror.

I think PCT can help avoid disasters like Bush (and Hitler) but it can do so only when most people have learned that approaches to solving problems such as those advocated by Bush and his ilk (Hitler, Neocons, etc) , which basically involve trying to solve conflicts by force, don't work in the long (and often in the short) run. But that won't help my family and friends who have to live with the occasionally disastrous consequences of the _incompetent_ decisions made by a majority of voters. Of course, the majority sometimes acts wisely: it elected Clinton and returned him to office. But it quickly undid the reasonable course we were on, and all some of us could do -- even those of use who understand PCT -- was watch in dismay and (now) horror.

Best

Rick

···

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