Changing Controlled Variables

from [ Marc Abrams (990629.1644) ]

This post is based on a phone conversation I had with Bruce Gregory. The
thoughts and conjectures I am expressing here are mine :-).

I would appreciate any thoughts on this matter from anyone, but I would
specifically like to hear what Bill and Rick have to say about this.

The situation:

I have some leisure time and "decide" to read a book. After a bit of time I
remember that a TV special is on. So I put the book down and turn the TV on.
I watch a little and decide after a short period of time that I would prefer
playing a game on my computer. This has actually happened to me and I don't
think it's a very unusual sequence of events.

What I think I know :slight_smile:

_ALL_ actions are generated by _error_. ( Thank you Bruce for making this
crystal clear ) The "reason" I "changed" from reading, to TV, to the
Computer, was because of error. Now, the only thing that can cause an error
is the difference between what I perceive and my reference level. While I am
reading my perception and reference are in harmony. My perception remained
the same while my reference level changed ( from reading to watching TV )
when the thought popped into my head. This caused an error and my actions,
putting the book down and turning on the TV ) eliminated the error.

I am conjecturing that the "reason" I changed from reading to the TV came
because of a change in my reference level, which in turn came from my
"imagination" ( memory ) _Why_ I became aware of it, at that time is still a
mystery. I am not focusing in on that question (yet :slight_smile: ) What I am focusing
in on is, what initiated the change from my reading to wanting to watch TV,
and is it plausible to think about "changes" in what we control for in that
way?

To summarize:
A change in reference level, gotten from imagination/memory causes an error,
generating actions and a change in perception.

Thoughts, Comments?

Marc

[From Rick Marken (990629.1550)]

Marc Abrams (990629.1644)

What I think I know :slight_smile:

_ALL_ actions are generated by _error_. ( Thank you Bruce for
making this crystal clear ) The "reason" I "changed" from
reading, to TV, to the Computer, was because of error.

This is true if reading, watching TV and playing computer
are actions aimed at protecting a controlled perception from
disturbance. It is not true if the sequence of actions (read,
watch TV, play computer) is itself a controlled (sequence type)
perception.

To summarize:
A change in reference level, gotten from imagination/memory
causes an error, generating actions and a change in perception.

Thoughts, Comments?

Sounds fine to me. I don't think it's very common but it does
seem to happen. For example, I think that's what's happening
when you "kick" yourself awake from a falling dream. The
reference for leg position is changed by a system that is
imagining that you have just missed a step (say); since there
is really no step the leg just kicks out (courtesy of the
reference change) and you wake up, happy to find that you
are not really falling down the stairs.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

from [ Marc Abrams (990629.1943) ]

[From Rick Marken (990629.1550)]

Marc Abrams (990629.1644)

> What I think I know :slight_smile:
>
> _ALL_ actions are generated by _error_. ( Thank you Bruce for
> making this crystal clear ) The "reason" I "changed" from
> reading, to TV, to the Computer, was because of error.

This is true if reading, watching TV and playing computer
are actions aimed at protecting a controlled perception from
disturbance. It is not true if the sequence of actions (read,
watch TV, play computer) is itself a controlled (sequence type)
perception.

Yes, If I planned this as a series ( sequence ) of events then I would in
fact be controlling for the entire process. But that was not what I was
trying to communicate. I was perfectly happy reading my book until this
thought popped into my head ( there is a TV special on ).

> To summarize:
> A change in reference level, gotten from imagination/memory
> causes an error, generating actions and a change in perception.

Sounds fine to me. I don't think it's very common but it does
seem to happen. For example, I think that's what's happening
when you "kick" yourself awake from a falling dream. The
reference for leg position is changed by a system that is
imagining that you have just missed a step (say); since there
is really no step the leg just kicks out (courtesy of the
reference change) and you wake up, happy to find that you
are not really falling down the stairs.

Well if we allow for imagination/memory to influence the formation of our
reference levels, then it might be interesting to see how much of our
reference levels are based on our imagination/memory vs. higher levels in
the hierarchy. Just a passing thought.

Thanks for yours Rick.

Marc

[From Rick Marken (990629.2000)]

Marc Abrams (990629.1644)--

_ALL_ actions are generated by _error_. ( Thank you Bruce for
making this crystal clear )

Me:

This is true if reading, watching TV and playing computer
are actions aimed at protecting a controlled perception from
disturbance.

Marc Abrams (990629.1943) --

Yes, If I planned this as a series ( sequence ) of events

Actually, I should have said "This is not true no matter what;
actions are _not_ generated by error". Saying that "error
generates action" is just a cause-effect (and, thus, incorrect)
way of thinking about control.

In a control loop, error causes action _while_ action causes error.
So error is "generating" action _at the same time_ that action
is "generating" error. What is important about this closed loop
process is that it keeps a variable (the CV) under control (at
the level specified by the reference signal, protected from
disturbance).

I would suggest that you try to stop thinking about control as
"error generating action"; this is S-R thinking; and it's
misleading because it draws your attention away from the central
fact of control (controlled perceptual variables) and focuses it
on one aspect of control that looks like (but is not) an S-R
process.

If you can't resist thinking of control in causal terms I think
it's best to think of it as reference signals causing particular
values of perceptual values; changes in a reference signal causes
(or generates) concomittant changes in the perceptual signal. Of
course, it's the causal loop that keeps the perceptual signal
matching the reference signal; but it does this, not by "error
generating action", but by the simple magic of continuous,
negative feedback, closed loop causality.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Bill Powers (990630.0636 MDT)]

Rick Marken (990629.2000)--

Actually, I should have said "This is not true no matter what;
actions are _not_ generated by error". Saying that "error
generates action" is just a cause-effect (and, thus, incorrect)
way of thinking about control.

While I agree with you that it's better to focus on the perception as the
object of control, I think denying that error causes action makes the whole
model a bit too mysterious. A control loop is made up of a set of little
cause-effect processes. Hooking them up as a closed loop doesn't change the
character of these processes: they each still convert inputs into outputs.
The output function of a control system receives a continuous error signal
and produces a continuous output signal; the output signal is a continuous
function of the error signal. It's true that the error signal is also a
function of the output (and disturbances), but that doesn't alter the fact
that the error signal causes the output, at the same time.

You can argue that this only encourages people to think of the control loop
as a sequence of events occurring one after another, and that's probably
true. But can't it be explained that all these functions operate at the
same time, like the parts of a car engine?

Perhaps we need to focus more on identifying how the parts of the control
model correspond to elements of subjective experience. The way the model is
conceived right now -- and this could change -- the ONLY part of the model
that we can experience directly is the perceptual signal. We can perceive
reference signals only in the imagination mode, when they are routed into
the perceptual channels (so we are still perceiving only perceptual
signals). And error signals we don't experience at all -- there's no
provision in the model for switching the error signal back into the
perceptual inputs before it has entered the output function. I'm not even
sure what would happen if we made that connection in a model.

Is that an oversight that should be corrected, or is it a realistic
feature? I've thought about this quite a bit, and so far it still looks
like a realistic feature. This doesn't mean that we can't _infer_ the
existence of error signals, it means only that we can't perceive the error
itself, directly. Remember that higher-level error signals drive
lower-level control systems, changing their reference signals and therefore
changing the perceptual signals sent back up to higher-level systems. So if
we perceive nourselves acting as if to oppose some disturbance, chances are
that there's an error signal setting a reference level for that action or
some effect of it. That's how we can "infer" an error: by experiencing its
lower-level effects on perceptions.

Normally, while we're acting in relation to the outside world, we don't
experience reference signals, either. We simply experience what we intend
to experience (we also passively witness many perceptions not under
control), with the "intending" part being pretty vague in consciousness, if
it exists at all during action.

I think I'm simply reporting on what I do and do not actually experience of
the workings of the control model. It's easy to _imagine_ error signals and
reference signals and everything else, just by imagining the control model
while you experience something. But if you stick strictly to what you are
actually experiencing right now, I think the only part of the control model
that fits the experience is the perceptual signal.

This makes sense from another point of view. If we experienced every aspect
of the control systems in us, they would appear as self-evident aspects of
reality, and we wouldn't need any model. We need a model precisely because
large parts of our own functioning remain hidden from our conscious
inspection. The model fills in connections which logically must be there,
but which are not located where we can see them. This, indeed, is why
things like intentions and purposes have been so mysterious; if we could
experience reference signals and error signals in action (rather than only
in an introspective state of imagination), we would understand exactly how
they work and there never would have been any mystery.

The clincher for me is one simple fact: we have trouble convincing some
people that they are organized as, and behave like, control systems. I have
never had any trouble convincing anyone that they have arms and hands and
can seize a joystick and move it, because they can experience such things
directly for themselves. If the whole structure of the control hierarchy
were equally part of experience, there wouldn't be any PCT because
everybody would already know all about it.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (990630.0940 EDT)]

Rick Marken (990629.1550)

Marc Abrams (990629.1644)

> What I think I know :slight_smile:
>
> _ALL_ actions are generated by _error_. ( Thank you Bruce for
> making this crystal clear ) The "reason" I "changed" from
> reading, to TV, to the Computer, was because of error.

This is true if reading, watching TV and playing computer
are actions aimed at protecting a controlled perception from
disturbance. It is not true if the sequence of actions (read,
watch TV, play computer) is itself a controlled (sequence type)
perception.

I believe it must be true even for a sequence of actions. Here you are
protecting the perception that you are carrying out a sequence of
actions.

Bruce Gregory

[From Bruce Gregory (990630.0950 EDT)]

Rick Marken (990629.2000)

In a control loop, error causes action _while_ action causes error.
So error is "generating" action _at the same time_ that action
is "generating" error.

You would have made a great Rabbi. Talmudic scholarship's loss is our
gain. I'll ask your indulgence to continue to maintain that there is no
action in the absence of error.

Bruce Gregory

from [ Marc Abrams (990630.0953) ]

[From Rick Marken (990629.2000)]

Actually, I should have said "This is not true no matter what;
actions are _not_ generated by error". Saying that "error
generates action" is just a cause-effect (and, thus, incorrect)
way of thinking about control.

Sorry, I disagree. No error, no action.

In a control loop, error causes action _while_ action causes error.

Actions are intended to reduce error. I thought disturbances "caused" errors
by altering our perceptions. Errors can also be caused by a change in
reference level, relative to what we are perceiving. The feedback function
clearly shows how our output ( actions ) combine with disturbances to
provide an input function that becomes our perception and is compared
continuously with our reference levels. Are you saying that _intended_
actions "cause" errors? I can see where any one action may not be sufficient
to fully correct an error so the process continues until it is corrected.
Are you implying something different?

So error is "generating" action _at the same time_ that action
is "generating" error. What is important about this closed loop
process is that it keeps a variable (the CV) under control (at
the level specified by the reference signal, protected from
disturbance).

Again, please clarify your statement, that action is "generating" error.

I would suggest that you try to stop thinking about control as
"error generating action"; this is S-R thinking;

Sorry, I disagree. I don't think about _control_ as "error generating
action". Error generating action is _part_ of the control loop.

Here we see your selective focusing process. I brought this aspect of the
control loop up to talk about how imagination/memory may play a part in
altering our reference levels, hence "causing" "errors" and inducing actions
to correct those errors. I did not nor do I think about _control_ as "error
generating action". That comes from your interpretation. Next time try
asking if in fact that's _my_ interpretation as well.

and it's
misleading because it draws your attention away from the central
fact of control (controlled perceptual variables) and focuses it
on one aspect of control that looks like (but is not) an S-R
process.

Sorry, How do you know this? Another great example of _Your_ assumptions
about anothers actions that you are totally off base with. Actually if you
really want to be nit-picky, the PCT model as currently drawn shows a bunch
of boxes with lines and arrows pointing from one to another. Aren't each of
these a "cause and effect" relationship? Althought the process is not
sequential, it all happens simultaneously and continuously, are you saying
that there exists _no_ cause and effect relationships in the model? What's
wrong with focusing on different aspects of the model, as long as you
understand that the whole is _not_ simply a sum of the parts.

If you can't resist thinking of control in causal terms I think
it's best to think of it as reference signals causing particular
values of perceptual values; changes in a reference signal causes
(or generates) concomittant changes in the perceptual signal. Of
course, it's the causal loop that keeps the perceptual signal
matching the reference signal; but it does this, not by "error
generating action", but by the simple magic of continuous,
negative feedback, closed loop causality.

OK, and how would you explain the process of your "simple magic of
continuous, negative feedback, closed loop causality."

Seems to me Rick you feel the need to have the last word on things. You
certainly didn't try to see if my thinking about the control loop was as you
contend. You don't seem to be addressing the issues _I_ brought up either. I
don't consider your remarks constructive because you never tried to
understand why _I_ said what I did. Your advocating a position that resides
in your head alone. I have no qualms with what you posted. I just don't feel
they apply to me.

Marc

[From Rick Marken (990630.0830)]

Me:

Actually, I should have said "This is not true no matter what;
actions are _not_ generated by error".

Bill Powers (990630.0636 MDT)

While I agree with you that it's better to focus on the
perception as the object of control, I think denying that
error causes action makes the whole model a bit too
mysterious...

You're right, of course. I should just say that thinking of
control in terms of "error generating action" misses the
point of control -- which is to keep a perceptual variable
in an internally specified reference state, protected from
disturbance.

My experience is that the people who focus (verbally, anyway)
on the causal connection between error and output typically
neglect controlled variables; they talk as though the causal
connection between error and action (rather than the controlled
variable) is the central feature of control rather than what
it is; just one of many simultaneously acting causal links in
a control loop. The result (produced intentionally or
unintentionally, I don't know) is to give the impression that
a control model is fundamentally the same as a causal model of
behavior.

Another problem with the idea that "error generates action"
in a control loop is the implication that _visible behavior_
is generated by error. I think people who say "error generates
action" believe that control theory says that _visible behaviors_
(arm movements, hugs, kisses, switching channels, etc., etc.)
are "generated" by error. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how
wrong _that_ notion; it's behaviorism all the way. This is
actually the case I was thinking of when I said: "This is not
true no matter what; actions are _not_ generated by error". I
should have said _visible actions_ are not generated by error.

For the uninitiated, there are two reasons why the actions we
see are not correctly viewed as "generated by error". First,
if the actions actually are error caused outputs, these outputs
occur in a closed loop. Because there is some noise in the
system, variations in these outputs will not necessarily be
related to variations in the error signal that causes them
(see the "S-R vs control" demo at

http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/ControlDemo/Cause.html

to see what I mean). Second, what are seen as actions may
themselves be controlled variables so there will be no
relationship between these variables and any error signal.

Bruce Gregory (990630.0950 EDT)

I'll ask your indulgence to continue to maintain that there
is no action in the absence of error.

Marc Abrams (990630.0953)

Sorry, I disagree. No error, no action.

In an integral control system, zero error can cause a
constant rate of change in action.

Best

Rebbe Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (990630.1140 EDT)]

Rick Marken (990630.0830)

In an integral control system, zero error can cause a
constant rate of change in action.

Once again, you have the last word. You may not always be right, but you
are never uncertain.

Bruce Gregory

[From Rick Marken (990630.1110)]

Bruce Gregory (990630.1140 EDT)--

Once again, you have the last word. You may not always be
right, but you are never uncertain.

If you could treat CSGNet as an opportunity to learn control
theory rather than as an opportunity to tell what you already
know about it you might not feel like there is a "last word"
to be had.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (990630.1530 EDT)]

Rick Marken (990630.1110)

If you could treat CSGNet as an opportunity to learn control
theory rather than as an opportunity to tell what you already
know about it you might not feel like there is a "last word"
to be had.

You really are an ass aren't you? Don't feel obliged to respond. There's
nothing worse than a defensive ass.

Bruce Gregory

[From Rick Marken (990630.1320)]

Me:

If you could treat CSGNet as an opportunity to learn control
theory rather than as an opportunity to tell what you already
know about it you might not feel like there is a "last word"
to be had.

Bruce Gregory (990630.1530 EDT) --

You really are an ass aren't you? Don't feel obliged to
respond. There's nothing worse than a defensive ass.

I guess I've still got a ways to go on my "people skills".

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

from [ Marc Abrams (990630.1654) ]

[From Rick Marken (990630.1320)]

I guess I've still got a ways to go on my "people skills".

You betcha. I guess "People skills" are not currently part of the PCT model
so you have absolutely no use for them. I like your tenacity though.

Marc

[From Dick Robertson,990701.0623CDT]

Bill Powers wrote:

[From Bill Powers (990630.0636 MDT)]

Rick Marken (990629.2000)--

>Actually, I should have said "This is not true no matter what;
>actions are _not_ generated by error". Saying that "error
>generates action" is just a cause-effect (and, thus, incorrect)
>way of thinking about control.

While I agree with you that it's better to focus on the perception as the
object of control, I think denying that error causes action makes the whole
model a bit too mysterious. A control loop is made up of a set of little
cause-effect processes. Hooking them up as a closed loop doesn't change the
character of these processes: they each still convert inputs into outputs.
The output function of a control system receives a continuous error signal
and produces a continuous output signal; the output signal is a continuous
function of the error signal. It's true that the error signal is also a
function of the output (and disturbances), but that doesn't alter the fact
that the error signal causes the output, at the same time.

I think I'm simply reporting on what I do and do not actually experience of
the workings of the control model. It's easy to _imagine_ error signals and
reference signals and everything else, just by imagining the control model
while you experience something. But if you stick strictly to what you are
actually experiencing right now, I think the only part of the control model
that fits the experience is the perceptual signal.

This makes sense from another point of view. If we experienced every aspect
of the control systems in us, they would appear as self-evident aspects of
reality, and we wouldn't need any model. We need a model precisely because
large parts of our own functioning remain hidden from our conscious
inspection. The model fills in connections which logically must be there,
but which are not located where we can see them. This, indeed, is why
things like intentions and purposes have been so mysterious; if we could
experience reference signals and error signals in action (rather than only
in an introspective state of imagination), we would understand exactly how
they work and there never would have been any mystery.

Nice post Bill. It's nice to get back to basics like this from time to time.

Best, Dick R..

from [ Marc Abrams (990703.1720) ]

[From Bill Powers (990630.0636 MDT)]

I think I'm simply reporting on what I do and do not actually experience

of

the workings of the control model. It's easy to _imagine_ error signals

and

reference signals and everything else, just by imagining the control model
while you experience something. But if you stick strictly to what you are
actually experiencing right now, I think the only part of the control

model

that fits the experience is the perceptual signal.

Bill, I am assuming from the above that "experiencing" and "imagining" are
not one in the same. Experiencing is what you are actually "sensing" at the
time. "Imagining" is an "interpretation" from "memory". Am I correct in
these definitions? If so. From a "practical" standpoint, ( i.e. how they
"seem" to be used in the process ), does it make a difference whether it is
in fact imagined or "real" ? I can see the significance in the difference
of both in the model.

Thanks
Marc

The clincher for me is one simple fact: we have trouble convincing some
people that they are organized as, and behave like, control systems. I

have

···

never had any trouble convincing anyone that they have arms and hands and
can seize a joystick and move it, because they can experience such things
directly for themselves. If the whole structure of the control hierarchy
were equally part of experience, there wouldn't be any PCT because
everybody would already know all about it.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (990703.1949 MDT)_]

Marc Abrams (990703.1720)--

Bill, I am assuming from the above that "experiencing" and "imagining" are
not one in the same. Experiencing is what you are actually "sensing" at the
time. "Imagining" is an "interpretation" from "memory". Am I correct in
these definitions? If so. From a "practical" standpoint, ( i.e. how they
"seem" to be used in the process ), does it make a difference whether it is
in fact imagined or "real" ? I can see the significance in the difference
of both in the model.

I don't have a good simple word for experiences which originate in
perceptual signals that ultimately are coming from sensory receptors, or
for experiences that originate in perceptual signals that are being
internally generated. For the latter, the term "imagination" is probably
adequate, but there doesn't seem to be a word that explicitly fits the
former type of experience. If you experience a lion loose in the street
where you're walking, it makes a considerable difference where that
experience is coming from, doesn't it?

Best,

Bill P.

from [ Marc Abrams (990703.2237) ]

[From Bill Powers (990703.1949 MDT)_]

I don't have a good simple word for experiences which originate in
perceptual signals that ultimately are coming from sensory receptors, or
for experiences that originate in perceptual signals that are being
internally generated. For the latter, the term "imagination" is probably
adequate, but there doesn't seem to be a word that explicitly fits the
former type of experience. If you experience a lion loose in the street
where you're walking, it makes a considerable difference where that
experience is coming from, doesn't it?

You bet :-). But i was think more in terms of our reference levels being
"informed" by "imagination" rather then "sensory" input. I realize that the
example you cited is pretty clear cut. But I am not so sure _everything_ is.
Any thoughts on this?

Marc

[From Bill Powers (990706.0733 MDT)]

Marc Abrams (990703.2237)--

... But i was think more in terms of our reference levels being
"informed" by "imagination" rather then "sensory" input.

Imagination, in PCT if not in real life, is defined as the routing of
reference signals back into perceptual channels rather than into
lower-level comparators. I have also hypothesized that reference signals
may be derived from memory, in effect being recorded perceptual signals.
The intent of this proposal is to explain how we can act to make a previous
experience happen again. It also explains how recorded perceptions can find
their way back into the same perceptual channels to be experienced again,
which is my idea of what remembering is. If the perceptual signals are
generated in the same combinations in which they really occurred, we call
it remembering; if they are generated in combinations that didn't occur at
the same time, we call it imagining because the total experience never
actually happened before.

I don't know what you mean by saying that reference signals are "informed"
by imagination. If you mean that at least some reference signals are
recorded perceptions, I agree with you as noted above, although it's also
possible for a reference signal simply to be generated by a higher-level
output function directly. When memory is interposed, the higher system
would generate and vary the reference signals for lower systems by
addressing memory recordings.

Generally, any experience consists of multiple perceptions at each level,
each perceptual signal providing just one simple dimension of the whole
experience. The same applies to imagining. Imagining just a single
dimension of breakfast might amount to imagining the sweetness of jelly on
toast. Imagining (or remembering) breakfast as a whole experience would
require imagining many such perceptions at the same time.

It's been suggested, and I agree, that most real-time experiences actually
contain a considerable degree of imagined information from previous
experiences. When you look at an object, for example, you may imagine that
it exists in three dimensions even when you can't see its other side. I'm
looking at an upholstered chair back; I see it as being upholstered all
over, not just on the side I can actually see. Of course it's not hard to
separate the imagined part from the part I'm actually seeing, if my
attention is drawn to the question of what I'm actually observing.

I realize that the
example you cited is pretty clear cut. But I am not so sure _everything_ is.
Any thoughts on this?

Don't know what you mean. Could my proposal be wrong? Sure. Does it cover
every possible aspect of memory and imagination? I doubt it!

Best,

Bill P.

from [ Marc Abrams (90706.1349) ]

Terrific post Bill, Thanks. It helped clarify my think about it.

[From Bill Powers (990706.0733 MDT)]

>I realize that the
>example you cited is pretty clear cut. But I am not so sure _everything_

is.

>Any thoughts on this?

Don't know what you mean. Could my proposal be wrong? Sure. Does it cover
every possible aspect of memory and imagination? I doubt it!

No big deal, you have already explained yourself. I was referring to your
statement about seeing a lion walking down the street and asking me if I
would react to it as if it was "imagined":-).

Marc