Coercion Discussion

I'm following the coercion discussion but, for the most part, I'm staying
out of it because it seems way too heated and for reasons I don't quite grasp.

Anyway, I very much liked your post to Rick Marken, from which I snipped
the following...

On your side, Bill raises the specter of people prevented from gathering on
streetcorners by the threat of coercion. I submit that this is effective
control using the threat of coercion as means.

I have a little trouble with the phrase "the threat of coercion."
Coercion, as I understand it, is the application of force or the
threat/potential for using force. Thus, "the threat of coercion"
translates to the threat of the threat of the use of force. Substituting
"force" for "coercion" would make the sentence go down a bit better (or so
it seems to me).

And, I especially relished your comment that..

We haven't talked much about how a control system can perceive its own
behavioral outputs as an observable environment variable qi' and to control
perceptions of them in a control loop separate from the one that uses them
to control some other qi.

When I first joined the list I presented a rough diagram of how I thought
PCT worked to Rick and Bill. It included a dotted line from the actions of
the person to the person's perceptual inputs, indicating that we monitor
our own actions as well as their effects on the variables we seek to
control (said effects being defined as changes in the controlled variables
that we attribute to our actions). Rick disallowed it, saying it wasn't a
factor or unnecessary or some such thing. I don't recall that Bill ever
responded to that piece of the model. Anyway, I'm glad to see it being
introduced because we do observe ourselves as well as what goes on around
us (not to mention the interactions between the two).

Nice post...

Regards,

Fred Nickols
The Distance Consulting Company
nickols@worldnet.att.net
http://home.att.net/~nickols/distance.htm

  "The Internet offers the best graduate-level education
   to be found anywhere."

Actually, I didn't take his reply as sarcastic so much as I viewed it as an
acknowledgement. So far as I know proprioceptors are involved in a sense
we call "kinesthesia" (having to do with what this old behaviorist used to
call "striated muscles and joints"). I'm no PCT expert, but it seems to me
that somewhere in that hierarchy of reference conditions are some having to
do with "where the hell is my arm?" So overt physical behavior has to be
accommodated by PCT or it would be laughed out of existence. Given that my
arms and eyeballs (as well as some other sensory organs) are separated in
space, it also seems indisputable that I can have perceptions of my body
movements (a phenomenon most laypeople like me would equate with one form
of behavior). It takes no great stretch of imagination for me to imagine
(and believe) that I also hold perceptions of my "patterned behaviors"
(i.e., actions and courses of action). Speaking only personally (and
definitely not scientifically), I also make connections between my actions
and their effects. These I refer to as "expectations" (i.e., predictions
about the way things work and what will happen when and if I do a certain
thing). On and on it goes--which is why my model of human beings consists
of a circle with a great big question mark in it.

I do believe that Bill Powers and Rick have hold of a portion of the truth
about human behavior--but only a portion, not all of it. That's why I hang
around the PCT/CSG list. Every now and then I pick up another piece of the
puzzle.

Thanks, Fred.

Rick's sarcastic query whether I'd heard of proprioception was quite
remarkable, wasn't it.

Bruce

Regards,

Fred Nickols
The Distance Consulting Company
nickols@worldnet.att.net
http://home.att.net/~nickols/distance.htm

  "The Internet offers the best graduate-level education
   to be found anywhere."

···

At 05:01 PM 6/24/98 -0700, you wrote:

Thanks, Fred.

Rick's sarcastic query whether I'd heard of proprioception was quite
remarkable, wasn't it.

  Bruce