complex adaptive systems, evolvability vs robustness, degeneracy

[Martin Lewitt April 14 2010 0909 MDT]

What this article has to say about the contributions to robustness and evolvability or innovation in complex adaptive systems is discussed both in abstraction and to living systems. What is called degeneracy seems to be nearly interchangable with what I call redundancy. The insights may inform PCT, and also I suspect the advantages of free market capitalism with its redundant multiple payers, planners and competitors over a single payer centrally planned economy. It discuss biology, not economies, but I like theories with potentially broad explanatory power. There is even some firing neuron discussion. Is degeneracy/redundancy a waste or an advantage?

http://www.tbiomed.com/content/7/1/6

Degeneracy: a link between evolvability, robustness and complexity in biological systems
James M Whitacre

Abstract

A full accounting of biological robustness remains elusive; both in terms of the mechanisms by which robustness is achieved and the forces that have caused robustness to grow over evolutionary time. Although its importance to topics such as ecosystem services and resilience is well recognized, the broader relationship between robustness and evolution is only starting to be fully appreciated. A renewed interest in this relationship has been prompted by evidence that mutational robustness can play a positive role in the discovery of adaptive innovations (evolvability) and evidence of an intimate relationship between robustness and complexity in biology.

This paper offers a new perspective on the mechanics of evolution and the origins of complexity, robustness, and evolvability. Here we explore the hypothesis that degeneracy, a partial overlap in the functioning of multi-functional components, plays a central role in the evolution and robustness of complex forms. In support of this hypothesis, we present evidence that degeneracy is a fundamental source of robustness, it is intimately tied to multi-scaled complexity, and it establishes conditions that are necessary for system evolvability.

Martin L

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1010)]

Martin Lewitt (April 14 2010 0909 MDT) --

I guess in your world pi is 4.14;-) Happy pi day anyway.

What this article has to say about the contributions to robustness and
evolvability or innovation in complex adaptive systems is discussed both in
abstraction and to living systems...

�The insights may inform PCT

A quick glance suggests that, if anything, it would go the other way:
this guy could learn a lot from PCT, particularly from the E. coli
model of reorganization. But people who are already dedicated to
seeing the merits of concepts like "evolvability" (a dormitive
principle if I ever saw one) and "robustness" are rarely willing to do
the research and modeling needed to understand PCT. Indeed, in the 20
years of the existence of CSGNet I have not see as low a level of
understanding of PCT as that which is reflected in the current
discussions. It's pretty depressing but I just learned that we
switched to daylight savings time so at least today will be one hour
shorter .

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Martin Lewitt (April 14 2010 1112 MDT)

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1010)]

Martin Lewitt (April 14 2010 0909 MDT) --
     

I guess in your world pi is 4.14;-) Happy pi day anyway.

What this article has to say about the contributions to robustness and
evolvability or innovation in complex adaptive systems is discussed both in
abstraction and to living systems...
     
  The insights may inform PCT
     

A quick glance suggests that, if anything, it would go the other way:
this guy could learn a lot from PCT, particularly from the E. coli
model of reorganization. But people who are already dedicated to
seeing the merits of concepts like "evolvability" (a dormitive
principle if I ever saw one) and "robustness" are rarely willing to do
the research and modeling needed to understand PCT. Indeed, in the 20
years of the existence of CSGNet I have not see as low a level of
understanding of PCT as that which is reflected in the current
discussions. It's pretty depressing but I just learned that we
switched to daylight savings time so at least today will be one hour
shorter .

Best

Rick
   
Aren't internal homeostasis, developmental homeostasis and phenotypic robustness about maintaining reference levels in the face of environmental variation and mutation? I would have thought PCT was just more of the same.

Martin L

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1100)]

Martin Lewitt (April 14 2010 1112 MDT)

Still living in April, I see. Well, you're the only one who seems to
be willing to talk to me so I guess I'll answer you, even though
you're over there in the future.

Aren't internal homeostasis, developmental homeostasis and phenotypic
robustness about maintaining reference levels in the face of environmental
variation and mutation? �I would have thought PCT was just more of the same.

Not quite. PCT is about the controlling done by living systems. So the
first thing you have to learn is what control _is_; you have to
understand the phenomenon of control. In living systems, PCT shows
that control is what we call "behavior". Then you have to learn how
control (behavior) works; the theory of control. PCT emphasizes the
fact that control works via a closed negative feedback process where
perceptual representations of physical variables are maintained, by
the actions of the system, in reference states specified by the system
itself.

What you call "internal homeostasis", which I take to mean control of
physiological variables, is certainly a control process. So, yes, PCT
is about internal homeostasis. And to the extent that developmental
homeostasis and phenotypic robustness are control processes then PCT
Is about them too. That's because PCT it is about _all_ the
controlling done by living systems, particularly what might be called
"external homeostasis", where perceived aspects of a living system's
environment are maintained in states specified by the system itself.

It's this "external homeostasis" that is typically studied as
"behavior" in the behavioral sciences, and mistakenly (according to
PCT) studied as a cause-effect (rather than a control) process. The
"cause-effect" error in the behavioral sciences (called the
"behavioral illusion" in PCT) results from the fact that control looks
cause-effect when attention is focused on disturbance resistance
rather than controlled variables.

Because of the cause-effect error, which exists in all the behavioral
sciences (including economics; the term "incentives", for example,
betrays the cause-effect assumptions of economics) PCT really has very
little to learn from those sciences. But the behavioral sciences have
quite a lot to learn from PCT. But so far these sciences have shown
little inclination to learn from PCT because this would require
revising the foundations of their disciplines; and this would mean
re-writing a lot of textbooks (and careers). So now PCT is done only
by the few people who are actually interested in understanding control
(purposeful behavior). Which is nice; we don't need big, expensive
venues for our meetings; a comfortable living room will do.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Taylor 2010.03.14.15.20]

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1010)]
Martin Lewitt (April 14 2010 0909 MDT) --
I guess in your world pi is 4.14;-) Happy pi day anyway.
What this article has to say about the contributions to robustness and
evolvability or innovation in complex adaptive systems is discussed both in
abstraction and to living systems...

The insights may inform PCT
A quick glance suggests that, if anything, it would go the other way:
this guy could learn a lot from PCT, particularly from the E. coli
model of reorganization.

I wonder which part of the paper your “quick glance” fell upon? There
are certainly parts that would have been much stronger if the author
had understood PCT. “Robustness”, for example, would be translated into
two different concepts: “control” and “structural rigidity (including
armour)”. A control system is inherently robust, whether or not it has
structural rigidity. But that doesn’t make the other Martin’s comment
“the insights may inform PCT” wrong. I think he is right. If you read
the paper with a good understanding of both PCT and reorganization, I
think there is much food for thought there. But you do have to
understand what is known, what is assumed, and what is guessed about
both PCT and reorganization.

But people who are already dedicated to
seeing the merits of concepts like "evolvability" (a dormitive
principle if I ever saw one)

Is “temperature” a dormitive principle? Whiteacre defines what he means
by “evolvability”. To me, that definition doesn’t sound like a
dormitive pronciple any more than “temperature” does. It’s a measurable
property of a system, or at least he offers a measurable surrogate, in
the same sense that the measurable length of a tube of mercury can be a
surrogate for “temperature”.
Let’s consider for a moment what we know about reorganization and the
genetic influence on the structure of perceptual control. Actually,
what we know is not much. There are a few necessary constructs, such as
that intrinsic variables exist, and the PCT structure performs in such
a way as to maintain those variables within non-lethal bounds for long
enough in enough individuals that the genetic components can be passed
on to following generations. Beyond that, we know little about
reorganization; that it is done by an e-coli mechanism is somewhere
between an assumption and a guess.
How reorganization is done is unknown, and is obviously different in
different species. Short-lived species with thousands of descendants of
whom a tiny proportion survive to propagate clearly don’t adjust their
PCT structure in the same way as do long-lived species in which a small
number of children take years to become adults capable of genetic
propagation. The difference may be one of the magnitude of
reorganization, or it may reflect a qualitative difference. We don’t
know, but we do know it must be different between a mayfly and a dog.
Rick mentions that Whiteacre could learn “from the e-coli model of
reorganization”. But which “e-coli model or reorganization”? If you
read the paper with this question in mind, you may see that a lot of it
constrains possible or likely answers. In fact, one might almost say
that answering this question is the main thrust of the paper (or would
be, if it had been written with a knowledge of PCT, since much of it
applies directly, with almost unchanged wording).
Let’s consider a non-redundant HPCT structure reorganized by a global
e-coli operation, and assume that it functions well in some environment
of complexity sufficient to justify the existence of the HPCT structure
(by “justify” I mean that the structure maintains its intrinsic
variables better than would a similar structure with fewer levels).
This structure is rigid, in the sense that altering what or how any one
control unit controls will influence the entire structure. That’s the
nature of non-redundant systems.
Now let’s have the environment change (meaning that some environmental
feedback paths change properties or disappear, or that new possible
environmental feedback paths become available). The PCT structure
probably still maintains its perceptual variables pretty well against
disturbances; it is, after all, a control system. But do the side
effects of those control behaviours still serve to influence the
intrinsic variables as they once did? If not, then the PCT structure
must be reorganized until the intrinsic variables once again stay close
to their genetically determined reference values. Failure to reorganize
would be lethal.
Most importantly, at no time in this reorganization may the
intrinsic variables go to lethal values in most of the individuals,
because the species would go extinct if they did.

What does this criterion imply? Much of what it implies is stated in
the paper. Control modules (sometimes called Elementary Control Units,
but I intend to include substructures of ECUs, as well) are likely to
have overlapping functions. Overlapping control induces conflict, and
Bill P. has shown that if minimizing conflict is an intrinsic variable
(its surrogate being overall reduction of error), then the control
structure tends toward orthogonality. But then, if the control modules
affect mutually orthogonal perceptions and the environment changes to
allow influences on the intrinsic variables that are not incorporated
into any perceptions (think environmental non-visible radiation), how
will global e-coli reorganization fail to drive the system with high
probability into a lethal zone before arriving at a new stable
structure?

The answer in the paper is that if the total structure (of both
intrinsic and perceptual variables) is to be evolvable, control must be
maintained by existing means (robustness) while some control units
having an overlapping function explore new environmental feedback
pathways – distributed redundant systems. Within PCT, the mantra is
“different means to the same end”. Whiteacre says the same.

Within a species, the intrinsic variables, and probably a skeleton of
the perceptual control structure are genetically determined. When
talking about the entire (reorganizing) structure of perceptual control
and intrinsic variable maintenance, I call this a “genetically primed”
structure. If a genetically primed structure is to survive and not go
extinct, the PCT part of the structure must have a way to “let go”, in
two senses. In the first, more concrete, sense, many if not most
control units must be able to tolerate some error without generating
output to reduce the error – there must be a dead zone in the
comparator (we have long ago noted this requirement in the context of
limitation of degrees of freedom, so it’s not a novel requirement for a
PCT structure).

The second and more interesting sense of “let go” is that it must be
possible for at least one system of several that redundantly control
some variable to leave off controlling that variable and go control
something else by way of reorganization. Local e-coli reorganization
could allow this, where global e-coli reorganization could not. You can
think of an analogue in a structure of steel beams. in which many high
components are supported by more lower ones than are strictly
necessary. If someone were to build a bit of a cantilever on a high
floor, maybe one of those redundant lower beams could be used to
support the cantilever before it falls. But if the structure were built
most efficiently, there would be no available beam, and the cantilever
would simply break off when it got too big. And even in a redundant
structure, totally rearranging all the lower beams at once would be
likely to lead to the building’s complete collapse.

Bottom line, I think a slower glance at the paper and careful
consideration of which of its aspects apply equally in a PCT context
would justify what Martin L suggests: “The insights may inform PCT”.

Try a less “quick glance”. You may find it interesting.

Martin (T).

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.03.14.2251 UT)]

[Martin Taylor 2010.03.14.15.20]

Bottom line, I think a slower glance at the paper and careful consideration of which of its aspects apply equally in a PCT context would justify what Martin L suggests: "The insights may inform PCT".

Try a less "quick glance". You may find it interesting.

Thanks, Martin, for a very thoughtful post.

Bruce

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1530)]

Martin Taylor (2010.03.14.15.20)--

Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1010)--

A quick glance suggests that, if anything, it would go the other way:
this guy could learn a lot from PCT, particularly from the E. coli
model of reorganization.

I wonder which part of the paper your "quick glance" fell upon?

The Abstract.

There are certainly parts that would have been much stronger if the author
had understood PCT. "Robustness", for example, would be translated into
two different concepts: "control" and "structural rigidity (including armour)".

You're the expert at extracting silk purses from non-PCT sows' ears. I
have never seen you extract anything other than what looks clearly
like a sow's ear to me (the Schouten experiment being the most recent
example). But soldier on if you like.

Let's consider for a moment what we know about reorganization and the
genetic influence on the structure of perceptual control. Actually, what we
know is not much.

That's correct. We don't know much about it because no one is doing
any empirical research on it.

There are a few necessary constructs, such as that
intrinsic variables exist, and the PCT structure performs in such a way as
to maintain those variables within non-lethal bounds for long enough in
enough individuals that the genetic components can be passed on to following
generations. Beyond that, we know little about reorganization; that it is
done by an e-coli mechanism is somewhere between an assumption and a guess.

It's called a theory.

How reorganization is done is unknown, and is obviously different in
different species. Short-lived species with thousands of descendants of whom
a tiny proportion survive to propagate clearly don't adjust their PCT
structure in the same way as do long-lived species in which a small number
of children take years to become adults capable of genetic propagation. The
difference may be one of the magnitude of reorganization, or it may reflect
a qualitative difference. We don't know, but we do know it must be different
between a mayfly and a dog.

We do?

Rick mentions that Whiteacre could learn "from the e-coli model of
reorganization". But which "e-coli model or reorganization"? If you read the
paper with this question in mind, you may see that a lot of it constrains
possible or likely answers.

How could a paper do that? I thought theories were tested against
empirical data.

In fact, one might almost say that answering
this question is the main thrust of the paper (or would be, if it had been
written with a knowledge of PCT, since much of it applies directly, with
almost unchanged wording).

This is getting ridiculous.

Try a less "quick glance". You may find it interesting.

I did. I didn't

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.03.15.0217 UT)]

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1530)]

This is getting ridiculous.

Try a less “quick glance”. You may find it interesting.

I did. I didn’t.

What I admire most about you is your generosity of spirit. I’m sure that comes from your deep understanding of PCT. Bill is fortunate you have someone of your caliber championing his cause.

Bruce

(gavin ritz 2010.03.15.16.01NZT)

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1100)]

Martin Lewitt (April 14 2010 1112 MDT)

RM: because this would require revising the foundations of their
disciplines; and this would mean re-writing a lot of textbooks (and
careers).

GR: Rick with someone who has such large knowledge of PCT and control you
have a stunningly low understanding of the human control perception of
investment. A theory you should read is Hans Hass' Hypercell Organisms.

Regards
Gavin

[Martin Taylor 2010.03.14.23.17]

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1530)]

Martin Taylor (2010.03.14.15.20)--

Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1010)--
       
You're the expert at extracting silk purses from non-PCT sows' ears. I
have never seen you extract anything other than what looks clearly
like a sow's ear to me (the Schouten experiment being the most recent
example). But soldier on if you like.
   
At the risk of escalating a conflict...

I think this is called "looking at the world through rose coloured glasses". It makes the world look very clear. Everything is a rose. I've never heard of "sow's ear" glasses, though! Except that perhaps Lord Nelson's telescope is a better metaphor -- you see nothing of what is put in front of you, only the sows ears that your imagination provides. (For those who don't know the reference, English schoolchildren are taught that before one battle a signal was sent telling Nelson not to engage. Signals were sent by arrangements of flags on the sending ship's rigging. Nelson put the telescope to his blind eye, and said "I see no signal", and launched the attack. (Wikipedia says that the actual signal was permission to withdraw, not an instruction to withdraw)).

You have predetermined that, to misuse the language of formal logic "For all X, where X is a paper or idea not developed within PCT, it is false that X has scientific value." Having that as a fundamental proposition, you find no reason to consider or think about the concept that PCT is (or should be) a science within the body of science as a whole. That is the illogical and illegitimate approach you took to the Schouten experiment, and I have little doubt it will be the approach you take to any other experiment not conceived within a PCT framework and to any other theoretical consideration that could be valuable to PCT but that comes from elsewhere in the body of science (which includes more than S-R psychology).

I don't know why you feel the need to do it, because it sometimes seems to be really hard for you to find a way to argue that the suggested external studies are wrong, pointless, or irrelevant. However, by skillful use of nonsequiturs and evasions, you usually manage to convince yourself that you have done it. Your efforts are a real hindrance to both the scientific development of PCT and to the project of extending the reach of PCT to the larger community of scientists. Sometimes I think you actually do have a reference to keep the "secret of PCT" within a tiny elite group. It's a great shame.

Now for the science.

There are a few necessary constructs, such as that

intrinsic variables exist, and the PCT structure performs in such a way as
to maintain those variables within non-lethal bounds for long enough in
enough individuals that the genetic components can be passed on to following
generations. Beyond that, we know little about reorganization; that it is
done by an e-coli mechanism is somewhere between an assumption and a guess.
     

It's called a theory.
   
Not yet it isn't. It lacks several things that are necessary in a theory, notably that one might be able to make testable predictions from it. Furthermore, even the e-coli mechanism as applied to reorganization has never been explained clearly, at least not that I have seen.

Here are a couple of my problems in considering it a theory to say "reorganization uses the e-coli method."

    1. There are many different variants of what may happen during reorganization. We developed a taxonomy of them back when I first joined CSGnet. I think there were something like seven variants. I don't remember it all, but here are a few:
    a) Altering the connections of the output side of the hierarchy, either connecting an output to a new lower level reference input or disconnecting an output from a lower level to which it had been connected.
    b) Same for the input side, adding or dropping a connection to the perceptual input function from lower level perceptual signals (the effect of which is to develop a totally new perception to be controlled using the same outputs).
    c) Generating a new elementary control unit that has inputs from and outputs to the existing control structure.
    d) (Hebbian) Incrementally varying the strength of existing connections on the input or output side of the perceptual control structure.
A theory of reorganization should say something about how and when each of these and other possible variants are used. An e-coli theory of reorganization should show how the e-coli method applies in each of the four cases.

    2. The e-coli approach to an optimum of a test value (call it "fitness") depends on being able to continue varying some set of parameters in a given direction in parameter space until a further move in that direction reduces the fitness measure. Reorganization of the first three types depends on discrete changes in the connectivity of the control structure (in contrast to the fourth type, Hebbian changes, for which the variation is continuous). Question: when a reorganization event has has removed a connection or added a new one, and the result is an improvement in fitness (reduction in the error in some intrinsic variable without concomitant increase in the error of another), how is the move direction defined so that the next e-coli move is in that direction? A e-coli mechanism theory should specify this. The Whiteacre paper hints at how such a theory might be constructed.

    3. Does the e-coli mechanism theory say how intrinsic error relates to where in the perceptual control structure a reorganization event will occur, either probabilistically or definitively? Does the e-coli progression connect the location of one alteration to the location of its predecessor? If so, how? If reorganization "is done by an e-coli mechanism" it should specify this, except at the moments of a random redirection event in the e-coli optimization.

   4. Does the theory suggest how the location of reorganization events relates to the particular intrinsic variables for which errors are currently raising the probability of a reorganization event? Naively, for example, one might expect persistent error in the blood sugar intrinsic variable might lead to reorganization in the part of the hierarchy concerned with food selection and acquisition. Any theory of reorganization should at least say something about whether such localizations of reorganization will occur, even if it cannot specify more precisely how reorganization localization (if it occurs) is related to particular intrinsic variables. Here, I grant you, Bill P has often suggested for intuitive reasons that reorganization is likely to be directed in modular fashion. The Whiteacre paper suggests that reorganization almost has to be modular, and that this modularization would be redundantly distributed with overlapping modules, which would be a start on a theory.

I'd like to think that the assumption or guess that reorganisation is done by an e-coli mechanism could become a testable theory. As matters stand (at least in my head), the only supporting argument for even random reorganization is that the organism (or rather, the perceptual control structure) can have no way of knowing how to make things better when the existing control mechanisms fail to keep intrinsic variables within tolerable bounds. Nothing about that premise says that successive random reorganization events are directionally connected in the way that successive e-coli moves are connected.

All in all, I am inclined to stick with my use of the term "guess or assumption" in connection with the idea that e-coli is the mechanism of reorganization, and I will add that at the moment I think it a guess very unlikely to be found correct when it is put into the testable form of a theory.

   

How reorganization is done is unknown, and is obviously different in
different species. Short-lived species with thousands of descendants of whom
a tiny proportion survive to propagate clearly don't adjust their PCT
structure in the same way as do long-lived species in which a small number
of children take years to become adults capable of genetic propagation. The
difference may be one of the magnitude of reorganization, or it may reflect
a qualitative difference. We don't know, but we do know it must be different
between a mayfly and a dog.
     

We do?
   
"Know" was probably a bit strong, but I don't think it's too far wrong, given the life span and the relative fixidity of the behaviours of the two species. Have you every seen mayfly behaviour? Clearly they control some perceptions, but every one of them seems to do exactly the same thing. They fly off the lake surface, go up and down with a period of a few seconds over a range of a couple of metres at a median height of two to four metres, drifting laterally (with the wind or by a random walk?) until they hit something, then stick to whatever they hit, unless it's at night and there's a light shining in the dark, in which case they fly more or less toward the light and swarm around it. It looks awfully like a genetically programmed perceptual control structure with no reorganization during the short life of the individual. Dogs, on the other hand, clearly reorganize, even when they are quite old. So I would say we are close to knowing that there is at least a magnitude difference in reorganization between the species, and it may reflect a qualitative difference.
   

Rick mentions that Whiteacre could learn "from the e-coli model of
reorganization". But which "e-coli model or reorganization"? If you read the
paper with this question in mind, you may see that a lot of it constrains
possible or likely answers.
     

How could a paper do that? I thought theories were tested against
empirical data.
   
You have a way with non-sequiturs, don't you! It's quite a talent, but it's not really appropriate in scientific discussion. I said that the arguments in the paper constrain the likelihoods of different kinds of answers, not that it offered or tested any theory (unless that theory actually did provide answers that could be compared to the constraints). It provides theoretical backing to Bill's hunch that reorganization is likely to be modular, and extends it by suggesting that the modules will have substantial overlap. That may become testable when some real theory of reorganization is proposed.
   

  In fact, one might almost say that answering
this question is the main thrust of the paper (or would be, if it had been
written with a knowledge of PCT, since much of it applies directly, with
almost unchanged wording).
     

This is getting ridiculous.
   
And that is rather childish. I wish for once you would take your Lord Nelson telescope with the rose-coloured lenses away from your blind eye, and actually, really, look at things people suggest to you. To say automatically "I see no merit" is unworthy of a person claiming to be a scientist.
   

Try a less "quick glance". You may find it interesting.
     

I did. I didn't

I can't argue with that. I suppose I should have expected it. But I can hope that there are people that have a true interest in advancing PCT that will have read the paper, mulled it over, and considered whether some of its arguments survive the change in area of application.

Thanks to Martin L for bringing it to our attention.

Martin (T)

[Bruce Gregory (2010,03,15.0853 EDT)]

[Martin Taylor 2010.03.14.23.17]

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.14.1530)]

MT: You have predetermined that, to misuse the language of formal logic “For all X, where X is a paper or idea not developed within PCT, it is false that X has scientific value.” Having that as a fundamental proposition, you find no reason to consider or think about the concept that PCT is (or should be) a science within the body of science as a whole. That is the illogical and illegitimate approach you took to the Schouten experiment, and I have little doubt it will be the approach you take to any other experiment not conceived within a PCT framework and to any other theoretical consideration that could be valuable to PCT but that comes from elsewhere in the body of science (which includes more than S-R psychology).

BG: This is clearly a perception that Rick controls with very high gain. It is instructive that while he is quick to recognize this behavior in others, he is completely oblivious to it in himself. Apparently understanding PCT is no guarantee you will apply it in situations where it might prove most helpful. I am reminded again of Oliver Cromwell’s plea, “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, to think it possible that you might be mistaken.” I fear you will have as much success as Cromwell did.

By the way, Richard Kennaway is no slouch when it comes to behaving in this way. (How could we possibly have anything to learn from neural-network studies when they were not conducted in a PCT framework?) NIH (Not Invented Here) allows one to conveniently turn a blind eye to most of the research being done in the world outside CSGnet. The only downside is that the rest of the world can then conveniently turn a blind eye to PCT.

Bruce

Hi Rick !

MT : Let's consider for a moment what we know about reorganization and the
genetic influence on the structure of perceptual control. Actually, what we
know is not much.

RM : That's correct. We don't know much about it because no one is doing
any empirical research on it.

Do you mean "because no one is doing any empirical research on it" from PCT
members or there is no one doing empirical research about genetic influence
on the structure of perceptual control ?

Best,

Boris

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.16.1410)]

Martin Taylor (2010.03.14.23.17) --

At the risk of escalating a conflict...

Sorry for the delay in getting back. And for being a bit gruff in my
evaluation of the paper. I have no interest in conflict but this issue
is very important to me so I do tend to get a bit touchy when I'm
"disturbed". The issue is whether PCT demolishes the foundations of
scientific psychology, as per Powers _Psychological Review_ article of
1978 and my _Review of General Psychology_ article of 2009. I believe
it does and you don't. So there's really no reason for conflict.
You're not going to convince me that there is much to be learned from
"Pre-PCT" behavioral research and I'm not going to convince you that
it's all a "behavioral illusion".

To me, as a scientific psychologist, the most important contribution
of PCT to psychological science is methodological. The PCT revelation
of the existence of the "behavioral illusion" is a huge deal to me. It
says that the life sciences in general and psychology in particular,
have been laboring under an illusion -- the illusion that inputs cause
outputs -- for over 100 years; and it's just because the objects they
study (living organisms) are control systems rather than causal
systems, as they are in the physical sciences where the causal
methodology adoped by psychology is approrpriate.

The methodological implications of PCT are about as revolutionary as
it gets in the sense that they suggest that 100+ years of research and
scholarship may have to be deposited in a very large waste basket (to
use Bill Powers words). And I guess that, in recognition of the
importance of this revolution, I have committed myself to doing what I
can to help it eventually succeed, knowing that the chances of my
having any impact on psychological science in my lifetime are
infintesimal. But it gives meaning to my life while I'm here and
hopefully it will be my legacy after I'm gone. Still, it does upset me
when scientific psychologists (like you) who understand PCT are
unwilling to join me in this effort; or actively oppose the effort in
the name of "learning from existing research". I understand why you do
this (I think) so I'll try to be less upset by it in the future.

You have predetermined that, to misuse the language of formal logic "For all
X, where X is a paper or idea not developed within PCT, it is false that X
has scientific value." Having that as a fundamental proposition, you find no
reason to consider or think about the concept that PCT is (or should be) a
science within the body of science as a whole.

Say what? All I'm saying is what Bill Powers said in his 1973
_Science_ article and demonstrated in his 1978 _Psych Review_ article;
if you use causal methodology to study closed loop control systems you
will conclude that disturbances (IVs) cause behavior (DV) when in fact
the system is acting (DV) to protect a controlled variable (CV, which
is not even considered in causal methodology) from disturbance (IV).
I'm trying to bring psychology into being as a science rather than
leave it to flounder as a pseudo-science.

That is the illogical and
illegitimate approach you took to the Schouten experiment, and I have little
doubt it will be the approach you take to any other experiment not conceived
within a PCT framework and to any other theoretical consideration that could
be valuable to PCT but that comes from elsewhere in the body of science
(which includes more than S-R psychology).

In fact you know this is not true. I have made a serious effort to
apply PCT to conventional research where this has appeared to be
possible. In particular, I have applied PCT to research on
intercepting moving objects (like fly balls). This research has lent
itself to PCT modeling because the researchers actually provide
measures of potential controlled variables (such as the optical
changes in the position of a fly ball as the fielder moves to catch
it).

The Schouten experiment could also be modeled in PCT terms but it was
not obvious to me what data could be used to determine possible
controlled variables; and it also didn't seem all that interesting as
a control experiment. But it's a lot like the classical conditioning
situation and I am trying to develop a control model of that so maybe
I can apply the classical conditioning model to a simple reaction
time experiment when I get it set up. But even then (as in the case of
the baseball catching research) we would have to test the models using
research designs that were specifically aimed at testing to see
whether the variable controlled by the model is the same as that
controlled by the person.

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.03.16.1800 EDT)]

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.16.1410)]

Say what? All I’m saying is what Bill Powers said in his 1973
Science article and demonstrated in his 1978 Psych Review article;
if you use causal methodology to study closed loop control systems you
will conclude that disturbances (IVs) cause behavior (DV) when in fact
the system is acting (DV) to protect a controlled variable (CV, which
is not even considered in causal methodology) from disturbance (IV).
I’m trying to bring psychology into being as a science rather than
leave it to flounder as a pseudo-science.

You appear to have a very restricted view of psychological experiments. In many experiments the subject would seem to be controlling the perception “following the instructions.” It is true that most experimenters to do not attempt to disturb this perception to determine if it is in fact being controlled. That, however, would not seem to make the data gathered completely useless. If I administer a Raven’s Progressive Matrices test to a group of subjects, are you saying that the scores tell me nothing if I do not realize that the subjects are hierarchical control systems? That seems extreme, to say the very least.

Considering behavioral economics, for example, it is difficult for me to think of a study whose findings are completely worthless simply because the experimenters did not realize that humans can be treated as hierarchical control systems.

If the only experiments you are interested in involve tracking, I can see why you dismiss most behavioral science as uninteresting. Of course, you may be right. Maybe everything we need to know can be found in tracking experiments. That certainly makes one’s reading list much more manageable.

Bruce

[From Bill Powers (2010.03.16.1610 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2010.03.16.1410) –

Martin Taylor
(2010.03.14.23.17) –

At the risk of escalating a conflict…

I have no interest in conflict but this issue

is very important to me so I do tend to get a bit touchy when I’m

“disturbed”. The issue is whether PCT demolishes the
foundations of

scientific psychology, as per Powers Psychological Review article
of

1978 and my Review of General Psychology article of 2009. I
believe

it does and you don’t. So there’s really no reason for conflict.

You’re not going to convince me that there is much to be learned
from

“Pre-PCT” behavioral research and I’m not going to convince you
that

it’s all a “behavioral illusion”.

Defensiveness begets defensiveness, and to the other side, looks like an
attack. I applaud your effort to de-escalate. It would help even
more if you laid out more specifically what it is about conventional
psychology that needs to be discarded, and what difference it
makes.
I have objections to conventional methods that would hold even if PCT
didn’t exist. The use of population statistics to explain or predict
individual behavior is, to my mind, a mistake that needs to be rejected
whenever it’s made. Interpretations that go beyond the evidence and
assumptions that are untested should be considered as hypotheses to be
tested or dismissed as unjustified (like the assumption that placing a
mirror in a room with someone increases self-awareness). Simple logical
errors should be edited out, such as petitio principii. The error
of post hoc ergo propter hoc should be caught and eradicated
before publication. I don’t claim immunity: I expect to be called on such
errors when I make them just as anyone else should expect the same if
they want to be taken seriously.

My insistence on high correlations has nothing to do with PCT: I never
argue that low correlations are useless simply because PCT correlations
are high. My argument is that low correlations mean poor predictions as
well as inexcusable injustices to people whose lives are seriously
affected by judgements about them made on the basis of false positive or
false negative test results. You know more than most about statistical
analyses – you should be as strongly against them as you are against
falling for the behavioral illusion.

I have spoken up on all these issues for many years, and have experienced
opposition because of my opinions. However, the opposition has often been
expressed as if I’m saying that the problem is lack of belief in PCT,
rather than something that would be a problem if PCT had never been
invented. I think we need to be more clear about why we think something
is good or bad science.

One reason I have been cast as being too stiff-necked about little
details like bad predictions is a misplaced assumption about what I think
is wrong. When I’ve objected to using low-correlation facts, the first
objection has usually been that I’m asking for too much rigor in a field
where it’s hard to achieve. That is when I point to PCT experiments in
which very high correlations are routinely obtained, to show that it’s
not impossible to achieve rigor in the field of psychology if you have a
good theory. That has then been taken to mean that I object to the
experiments that give low correlations because they aren’t PCT
experiments. But that is simply a way to avoid confronting the arguments
I make which would hold true even if PCT didn’t exist. I’m certainly not
claiming that PCT is the only source of high correlations; I’m simply
saying that low correlations, taken by themselves, are useless for
dealing with individuals or for understanding the organization of
behavior. The difficulty of obtaining high correlations has nothing to do
with whether low correlations are useful, and is not an excuse for taking
low correlations as proving facts.

Clearly these arguments have not really been about PCT. They are simply
defenses against criticism of the way the majority of psychological
science is conducted. If my criticisms were vindicated, most of
psychological science would be abandoned as alchemy was abandoned. I
don’t think that conclusion, or the defenses against it, can be avoided.
But let’s not confuse that argument with an argument about PCT. Your
argument about the behavioral illusion is an argument about PCT versus
other theories. It’s not a matter of how reliable the observations of
cause and effect are; it’s a matter of a difference of opinion about what
is cause and what is effect. Any arguments about the behavioral illusion
can be settled by ordinary scientific methods. Arguments about the use of
low-quality facts can’t be settled that way. When I criticize psychology
I am criticizing the way most of the people who read my words make their
livings. I am neither surprised nor discouraged by the reaction to
that.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.03.16.2041 DST)]

[From Bill Powers (2010.03.16.1610 MDT)]

I have objections to conventional methods that would hold even if PCT
didn’t exist. The use of population statistics to explain or predict
individual behavior is, to my mind, a mistake that needs to be rejected
whenever it’s made.

BG: Would you propose that we outlaw insurance that is based on population statistics? I can imagine life insurance based on a detailed analysis of DNA and life style. Some people would pay less and others a great deal more. Would that be an improvement over the present system? How would a company decide what to charge me for insurance on my house? For flood insurance? Should I ignore the statistics that say flying is much safer than driving? How should I make the decision whether to drive or fly? Some people live to a ripe old age while smoking two packs a day. How do I know whether I am one of them? Should I smoke to find out? How about taking Vitamin D? How do I know it will do me any good? Should I take more Vitamin D or less? On what basis should I decide?

Interpretations that go beyond the evidence and
assumptions that are untested should be considered as hypotheses to be
tested or dismissed as unjustified (like the assumption that placing a
mirror in a room with someone increases self-awareness).

BG: The studies of which I am aware make no such assumption. They look at behavior with and without mirrors. I don’t see what is wrong with that. What am I missing?

Simple logical
errors should be edited out, such as petitio principii. The error
of post hoc ergo propter hoc should be caught and eradicated
before publication. I don’t claim immunity: I expect to be called on such
errors when I make them just as anyone else should expect the same if
they want to be taken seriously.

BG: Examples of these mistakes in the literature would be helpful. I would think they would call at least for a letter to the editor to help him or her avoid similar mistakes in the future.

My insistence on high correlations has nothing to do with PCT: I never
argue that low correlations are useless simply because PCT correlations
are high. My argument is that low correlations mean poor predictions as
well as inexcusable injustices to people whose lives are seriously
affected by judgements about them made on the basis of false positive or
false negative test results. You know more than most about statistical
analyses – you should be as strongly against them as you are against
falling for the behavioral illusion.

BG: If someone is opposed to a greater awareness of the implications of statistics, I haven’t heard their arguments. All the emphasis seems to be on the other side.

I have spoken up on all these issues for many years, and have experienced
opposition because of my opinions. However, the opposition has often been
expressed as if I’m saying that the problem is lack of belief in PCT,
rather than something that would be a problem if PCT had never been
invented. I think we need to be more clear about why we think something
is good or bad science.

BG: I hope Rick Marken is listening. His view seems to depart radically from yours. (I like yours better, but who am I to say?)

One reason I have been cast as being too stiff-necked about little
details like bad predictions is a misplaced assumption about what I think
is wrong. When I’ve objected to using low-correlation facts, the first
objection has usually been that I’m asking for too much rigor in a field
where it’s hard to achieve. That is when I point to PCT experiments in
which very high correlations are routinely obtained, to show that it’s
not impossible to achieve rigor in the field of psychology if you have a
good theory. That has then been taken to mean that I object to the
experiments that give low correlations because they aren’t PCT
experiments. But that is simply a way to avoid confronting the arguments
I make which would hold true even if PCT didn’t exist. I’m certainly not
claiming that PCT is the only source of high correlations; I’m simply
saying that low correlations, taken by themselves, are useless for
dealing with individuals or for understanding the organization of
behavior. The difficulty of obtaining high correlations has nothing to do
with whether low correlations are useful, and is not an excuse for taking
low correlations as proving facts.

BG: I am beginning to understand the source of your frustration. Almost nothing in the study of living systems can live up to your standards. No wonder you are unhappy. Here is an informal experiment that seems to most people to have validity, albeit not to you or Rick I would judge. A flight instructor said that blame was more effective than praise in improving the ability of pilots to learn to land airplanes. “Whenever they make a very good landing, I praised them. The next landing was always worse. Whenever they botched a landing, I chewed them out. The next landing was always better.” I suspect that the pilots were trying their best at all times. (They were controlling a variety of perceptions that they hoped would bring about a successful landing.) Of course, I have no data to prove this. Nevertheless, I suspect that the flight instructor’s experience could best be explained by reversion to the mean, and that, in fact, the landings would look pretty much as they did even if he never praised or blamed. But reversion to the mean is a a statistical argument that should not be applied to any individual pilot’s performance if I understand your argument.

Clearly these arguments have not really been about PCT. They are simply
defenses against criticism of the way the majority of psychological
science is conducted. If my criticisms were vindicated, most of
psychological science would be abandoned as alchemy was abandoned. I
don’t think that conclusion, or the defenses against it, can be avoided.
But let’s not confuse that argument with an argument about PCT. Your
argument about the behavioral illusion is an argument about PCT versus
other theories. It’s not a matter of how reliable the observations of
cause and effect are; it’s a matter of a difference of opinion about what
is cause and what is effect. Any arguments about the behavioral illusion
can be settled by ordinary scientific methods. Arguments about the use of
low-quality facts can’t be settled that way. When I criticize psychology
I am criticizing the way most of the people who read my words make their
livings. I am neither surprised nor discouraged by the reaction to
that.

BG: I agree that if the only behavior worth understanding were tracking experiments, the world would be a tidier place.Your message seems to be, if you can’t get high correlations, don’t bother publishing. As I said to Rick, that certainly makes the literature more manageable. However, I can think of many experiments where low correlations are very informative. I suspect you could too, if you tried…

Bruce

[From Bill Powers (2010.03.16.1915 MST)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.03.16.2041 DST) –

BP earlier: I have objections to
conventional methods that would hold even if PCT didn’t exist. The use of
population statistics to explain or predict individual behavior is, to my
mind, a mistake that needs to be rejected whenever it’s made.

BG: Would you propose that we outlaw insurance that is based on
population statistics?

BP: No. See Phil Runkel’s Casting Nets. Population statistics are
wonderful for predicting the behavior of populations. However, the
relationships among variables that hold for a population are quite
different from, and can be completely opposite to, the relationships
between those same variables in an individual. You may have missed
Richard Kennaway’s proof of that general principle.

Population statistics work to the advantage of people and organizations
who deal specifically with populations and have no interest in what
happens to any specific individual. An insurance company can predict the
accident rate among teen-age drivers and adjust insurance rates
accordingly. But it can’t predict which teen-aged driver will have an
accident – nor, if insurance companies played by the rules implied in
the concept of insurance, would they try to. They wouldn’t even ask the
ages of drivers.

BG: I can imagine life insurance
based on a detailed analysis of DNA and life style. Some people would pay
less and others a great deal more. Would that be an improvement over the
present system? How would a company decide what to charge me for
insurance on my house? For flood insurance?

BP: I think I’ve taken care of that. Insurance is supposed to spread the
risk according to population statistics, so no individual will be
devastated by rare high-expense problems. But insurance companies love to
do more detailed studies, so, for example, they can collect premiums for
health insurance only from healthy people. I hope that becomes
illegal.

BG: Should I ignore the
statistics that say flying is much safer than driving? How should I make
the decision whether to drive or fly? Some people live to a ripe old age
while smoking two packs a day. How do I know whether I am one of them?
Should I smoke to find out? How about taking Vitamin D? How do I know it
will do me any good? Should I take more Vitamin D or less? On what basis
should I decide?

BP: The only thing you have to go on is population statistics in cases
like these, though you can do some cherry-picking by selecting behaviors
that generally have better outcomes. Some airlines have better records
than others. However, the fact that it is vitally important to get the
predictions right in these cases does not improve your ability to predict
correctly. I remember Bill Williams saying that since financial
institutions handle so many billions of dollars every day, and the impact
on human lives is so enormous as a result, all the criticisms of economic
theories must therefore be wrong. After all, people carrying such a great
responsibility wouldn’t use a wrong theory, would they? It was in vain
that I protested that the importance of a prediction has no effect on its
correctness.

BP earlier: Interpretations that
go beyond the evidence and assumptions that are untested should be
considered as hypotheses to be tested or dismissed as unjustified (like
the assumption that placing a mirror in a room with someone increases
self-awareness).

BG: The studies of which I am aware make no such assumption. They look at
behavior with and without mirrors. I don’t see what is wrong with that.
What am I missing?

BP: How do they verify that putting a mirror in a room increases
self-awareness? That would imply having an independent way of measuring
self-awareness. Carver and Scheier claimed that the mirrors created a
high-self-awareness condition. They never showed that in fact it did.
They used the assumption as a premise in concluding that there was an
effect of self-awareness on something else. This was an example of
petitio principii.

BP earlier: Simple logical
errors should be edited out, such as petitio principii. The error
of post hoc ergo propter hoc should be caught and eradicated
before publication. I don’t claim immunity: I expect to be called on such
errors when I make them just as anyone else should expect the same if
they want to be taken seriously.

BG: Examples of these mistakes in the literature would be helpful. I
would think they would call at least for a letter to the editor to help
him or her avoid similar mistakes in the future.

See above reference to Carver and Scheier. If you think a letter would do
any good, please send one to their editors.

BP earlier: My insistence on
high correlations has nothing to do with PCT: I never argue that low
correlations are useless simply because PCT correlations are high. My
argument is that low correlations mean poor predictions as well as
inexcusable injustices to people whose lives are seriously affected by
judgements about them made on the basis of false positive or false
negative test results. You know more than most about statistical analyses
– you should be as strongly against them as you are against falling for
the behavioral illusion.

BG: If someone is opposed to a greater awareness of the implications of
statistics, I haven’t heard their arguments. All the emphasis seems to be
on the other side.

You’ve been away from CSGnet when such arguments went on, I guess.
Really, it does take two to have an argument.

I have spoken up on all these
issues for many years, and have experienced opposition because of my
opinions. However, the opposition has often been expressed as if I’m
saying that the problem is lack of belief in PCT, rather than something
that would be a problem if PCT had never been invented. I think we need
to be more clear about why we think something is good or bad
science.

BG: I hope Rick Marken is listening. His view seems to depart radically
from yours. (I like yours better, but who am I to say?)

BP: You’re you. Don’t you have a right to your opinion?

BG: I am beginning to understand
the source of your frustration. Almost nothing in the study of living
systems can live up to your standards.

BP: Yes, that’s right. I have trouble living up to them myself, but at
least I try to.

BG: No wonder you are unhappy.
Here is an informal experiment that seems to most people to have
validity, albeit not to you or Rick I would judge. A flight instructor
said that blame was more effective than praise in improving the ability
of pilots to learn to land airplanes. “Whenever they make a very
good landing, I praised them. The next landing was always worse. Whenever
they botched a landing, I chewed them out. The next landing was always
better.” I suspect that the pilots were trying their best at all
times. (They were controlling a variety of perceptions that they hoped
would bring about a successful landing.) Of course, I have no data to
prove this.

BP: First, I would have to check out the flight instructor’s claims,
especially that “always”. He’s saying that every student pilot
he taught in this way behaved that way. It’s a good yarn, but I don’t
believe it. That claim would arouse considerable skepticism in me (since
I’ve known a few flight instructors), and I’d want to find out if it’s
true before agreeing with it. Perhaps the instructor was wrong every time
he praised a landing, and right every time he criticised it, and the
students taught themselves to land an airplane. That seems to be about
what you’re proposing.

BG: Nevertheless, I suspect that
the flight instructor’s experience could best be explained by reversion
to the mean, and that, in fact, the landings would look pretty much as
they did even if he never praised or blamed. But reversion to the mean is
a a statistical argument that should not be applied to any individual
pilot’s performance if I understand your argument.

BP: I wouldn’t try to predict how any one pilot would fit in with the
statistical population of students. If you forced me to make a
prediction, I would use the population statistics, but I would expect to
predict wrongly almost as often as I predicted right. You mention an
individual pilot’s performance, and that would be very hard to predict
(unless, as the instructor seemed to imply, every single pilot really
responded to the instructor in the same way).

BG: I agree that if the only
behavior worth understanding were tracking experiments, the world would
be a tidier place.Your message seems to be, if you can’t get high
correlations, don’t bother publishing.

BP: Yes, exactly. Why publish garbage just to get tenure? Well, I know
why, of course. As to tracking experiments, there is one demonstration of
a tracking experiment among the 13 demos in my latest book. Clearly, I
don’t think tracking is the only behavior worth studying.

BG: As I said to Rick, that
certainly makes the literature more manageable. However, I can think of
many experiments where low correlations are very informative. I suspect
you could too, if you tried.

BP: I, too, think that low correlations are very informative. They inform
us that we don’t know enough yet to draw a reliable conclusion. They
inform me that if I have to use the hypotheses being tested to predict
individual performance, I can anticipate only slightly more successes
than failures.

By the way, I’ve concluded that you just can’t help the constant sniping,
and I’ve decided that I don’t have to object to it. So feel
free.

Best,

Bill P.

[Martin Taylor 2010.03.16.21.47]

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.16.1410)]

Martin Taylor (2010.03.14.23.17) --
     
At the risk of escalating a conflict...
     

Sorry for the delay in getting back. And for being a bit gruff in my
evaluation of the paper. I have no interest in conflict but this issue
is very important to me so I do tend to get a bit touchy when I'm
"disturbed". The issue is whether PCT demolishes the foundations of
scientific psychology,

I fail to see how that is relevant to the paper that started this thread. Everybody who has been on CSGnet for more than a few weeks knows that this is Rick's hobby horse, to be trotted out no matter what the topic of discussion. To argue the point is one way of avoiding the issue that is the topic of the thread, and a quite effective way it is. So I won't follow Rick's lead away from "complex adaptive systems, evolvability vs robustness, degeneracy."

Both Martins read the paper at <Degeneracy: a link between evolvability, robustness and complexity in biological systems | Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling | Full Text >, recognized that the actual psychology was flawed because of the author's ignorance of PCT, and recognized also that the arguments in the paper were directly relevant in a PCT context. For Rick to reiterate at length his mantra, that if a paper mentions non-PCT research, it is therefore worthless, is quite beside the point and damaging to the discussion.

The main body of my comment, the one to which Rick claims to be replying, was addressed to his claim that the author would have been better informed had he been aware that reorganization used the e-coli mechanism. I asked about what Rick meant by an "e-coli mechanism" as applied to reorganization, since there were several ways it could be interpreted, and some difficulties with some of those ways. I expected Rick's reply to include some discussion of the points that I made and the questions I asked, rather than to contain only an argument that I fail to understand that nothing can be learned from a paper that isn't devoted to testing for the controlled variable.

Apart from my comments and questions about e-coli reorganization (on which Rick claimed expertise), I further noted that the arguments in the Whiteacre paper made some quite specific predictions about what should be expected from studies of reorganization, when such studies become feasible (e.g. that reorganization should occur in overlapping modular segments of the perceptual control structure). Not only that, but I pointed out that the paper provides hints about how the e-coli mechanism actually could apply in reorganization, despite that on the surface e-coli seems inappropriate for what I called types 1, 2, and 3 reorganization. The paper also provides reasons to anticipate that most elementary control units should be expected to show a small tolerance dead-band for small errors. This last is quite easy to check out in tracking studies, though it is more likely to be important at higher levels. I'm surprised (not really) that Rick did not comment on any of these implications of Whiteacre's arguments for PCT.

Let me ask Rick (though I suppose I ask only for rhetorical effect, as I think I can guess the answer): did you re-read the paper to check out these implications for PCT either before or after I mentioned them? Did you understand how these implications derive from the arguments in the paper? Do you understand how the concept of "evolvability" applies in the context of reorganization, and why some possible control structure organizations are more rigid and less evolvable (i.e. amenable to successful adaptation to novel conditions) than others?

In other words, Rick, do you understand why I, a person reasonably conversant with PCT and with some possible mechanisms of reorganization, and one wishing to further the development of PCT as a theory, would find this paper to be potentially useful?

Martin

···

On 2010/03/16 5:12 PM, Richard Marken wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2010.03.16.2010)]

Martin Taylor (2010.03.16.21.47)--

Let me ask Rick (though I suppose I ask only for rhetorical effect, as I
think I can guess the answer): did you re-read the paper to check out these
implications for PCT either before or after I mentioned them? Did you
understand how these implications derive from the arguments in the paper? Do
you understand how the concept of "evolvability" applies in the context of
reorganization, and why some possible control structure organizations are
more rigid and less evolvable (i.e. amenable to successful adaptation to
novel conditions) than others?

I really only skimmed the paper. I just didn't see anything that was
obviously related to the "reorganization" model, as I understand it.
Reorganization in PCT is a control process. If the article were
pertinent to reorganization I would have expected to see something
about what kinds of variables are thought to be controlled by the
evolutionary process, what the evidence is that the process
(evolution) is a control process, etc. Nothing in the article struck
me as relevant to this; and there was no discussion at all of data
that might inform the discussion. It just wasn't my cup of tea.

In other words, Rick, do you understand why I, a person reasonably
conversant with PCT and with some possible mechanisms of reorganization, and
one wishing to further the development of PCT as a theory, would find this
paper to be potentially useful?

Not really. But that doesn't say that you shouldn't find it useful.
Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bruce Gregory (2010.03.17.0930 EDT)]

[From Bill Powers (2010.03.16.1915 MST)]

By the way, I’ve concluded that you just can’t help the constant sniping,
and I’ve decided that I don’t have to object to it. So feel
free.

That is very generous of you, but I will try to avoid constant sniping by keeping my thoughts to myself. I can see that most of the data that I find interesting is of no interest to you; rather, it only serves to irritate you. I should have realized this when you found controversial the claim that learning modifies neural networks. Since I cannot imagine the kind of data that would convince you of the merits of such an outrageous claim, the most prudent course of action is to join the majority of those on CSGnet who manage to avoid the displeasure of the keepers of the gates by remaining silent.

For some reason, the discussion on CSGnet reminds me of the “debate” about healthcare reform. One such folly is more than enough.

Bruce