conflict over control

CSGnet Archive CSG1999
1

From John Appel

[from John Appel]

To Rick

On 9 Jan 99 Rick Marken posted, Subject: Re Leslie and PCT

It seems to me people are always trying to control each other >>

<Me too...>

Hello Rick

I�ve been thinking about your post, �me too.� I �m interested in why
people try to control each other. According to my theory they do so
trying to maintain their sense of identity. A person maintains his
identity by being � in charge� of what he does. If he submits to
domination by another person, and does so continually, he loses his
identify-- �There�s no more me.�

Does this theory make any sense to you? I came upon it treating patients
with mental disorder. Like Leslie, they are always complaining of being
bossed around by somebody, usually some one they love, a spouse or other
relative. I noticed these patients were helpless, submissive, unable to
oppose or disagree with a dominating person, and unable to function.
With treatment, usually quite prolonged, they became able to oppose
others, they recovered and went on to lead normal lives.

I then noticed normal people also frequently try to control others.
Normal people, not just psychiatric patients, engage in battles over
control of what they think and do. It seems part of human nature is to
struggle constantly for identity. Husbands and wives argue constantly,
children argue with parents--�Do I have to eat my spinach?--or,� have go
to bed now?� etc.

How would PCT explain this conflict between people?

yours,

John Appel

···

Subject: control conflict [Who�s in Charge?]
Date: 1 Jan 19
To: CSG

2

[From Rick Marken (990119.2200)]

John Appel (99 Jan 19) --

I �m interested in why people try to control each other. According
to my theory they do so trying to maintain their sense of identity.
A person maintains his identity by being � in charge� of what he
does. If he submits to domination by another person, and does so
continually, he loses his identify-- �There�s no more me.�

Does this theory make any sense to you?

Sort of. I would say that people don't really control "each other";
they control perceptual aspects of the same environment. When what
people control is essentially the same aspect of the environment,
but they control it relative to different references, there is
conflict.

I came upon it treating patients with mental disorder. Like
Leslie, they are always complaining of being bossed around by
somebody, usually some one they love,

Yes. When the systems in conflict are in one person, then that
person loses control over the variable that is the object of
the conflict between systems. So disturbances to that variable
can be fully effective and it feels to the person like he or
she is being controlled by the disturbance. See my "Cost of
Conflict" demo at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/ControlDemo/Conflict.html

to see what if feels like to lose control due to internal conflict.

Normal people, not just psychiatric patients, engage in battles over
control of what they think and do. It seems part of human nature is to
struggle constantly for identity. Husbands and wives argue constantly,
children argue with parents--�Do I have to eat my spinach?--or,�
have go to bed now?� etc.

How would PCT explain this conflict between people?

Conflict between people occurs when two people have different
references for the same (or equivalent) perceptuwl aspects of the
environment. Husbands and wives argue, for example, because they
have different references for TV show they want to see at 8:00;
children argue with parents because they have different references
for the location of the spinach (the parent wants it in the kid's
mouth; the kid wants it on the floor).

It's not human nature to struggle in conflict; it's human nature
to control. Since people do much of their controlling in the
same environment they will often end up trying to control what
are essentially the same aspects of that environment relative to
different references. So conflict is an unfortunate consequence
of the fact that we control; one that, paradoxically, reduces our
ability to control.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

3

It sounds like you have discovered the phenomenon of "learned helplessness"
which Seligman talks about.

As a result of living with people who stop you from doing what you want, or
insist on you doing what they want, a person gives up pursuing his/her own
goals.

In PCT, we might describe this as saying that the gain of the control system
is very low or zero. It is like a temperature control system in which the
thermostat has been turned off. There is no reference temperature which the
system is controlling. If we are talking about the control system(s) for the
self-image, then there is no reference for this. I can see that a person may
feel as though they have lost self-identity.

People diagnosed with Schizophrenia often display this lack of initiating
activity and carrying out plans.

Perhaps this is an effective way of avoiding being controlled by others. If
true, then it is a way of controlling. The problem with this solution is
that the price is too high. It is like a sensory deprivation experiment in
which normal people will hallucinate.

···

From: David Goldstein
Subject: Re: conflict over control
Date: 01/20/99