conflict resolution

[From Bruce Nevin (80409.1523)]

Bill Powers (980409.1120 MDT)--

A simpler and more obvious example: I decide to reach in and set a
reference level for "finger toucbing heating element" on a stove. If the
heating element is turned off, no problem. But if it's on ....

Another: I decide to reach in a set a reference level "start writing $100
checks to poor people I meet on the street." This makes it clear that the
counteraction from higher systems is not just due to pain and suffering.

I decide to reach in and set a reference level for "finger touching heating
element" on a stove. I *believe* the heating element is on. (In fact it's
not.) This is parallel to the check-writing scenario. Imagined pain and
suffering can be as effective as present pain and suffering for a
higher-level system to counter that intention.

I suppose it resets the reference that would otherwise have produced the
action. Some other higher-level system originally set that reference (touch
the stove element; write the checks and give them away). So this is a
conflict in which one control system at the higher level relinquishes
control to the other, or is overwhelmed by it, or ... ?

It seems to me that the emotion associated with the pain and suffering
(imagined, remembered, or present) is what determines the choice.

  BN

[From Bill Powers (980410.0353 MDT)]

Bruce Nevin (80409.1523)--

I decide to reach in and set a reference level for "finger touching heating
element" on a stove. I *believe* the heating element is on. (In fact it's
not.) This is parallel to the check-writing scenario. Imagined pain and
suffering can be as effective as present pain and suffering for a
higher-level system to counter that intention.

Good extension of the idea. Of course if you _believe_ the heating element
to be on, and it isn't, you may notice evidence that says it's not really
on (no radiant heat sensed on your hand, for instance). Then the belief is
likely to change so the action can take place.

I suppose it resets the reference that would otherwise have produced the
action. Some other higher-level system originally set that reference (touch
the stove element; write the checks and give them away). So this is a
conflict in which one control system at the higher level relinquishes
control to the other, or is overwhelmed by it, or ... ?

Yes, the conflict is the main phenomenon, I think. Some higher-level change
will have to take place to resolve it, or failing that, reorganization will
have to produce changes.

It seems to me that the emotion associated with the pain and suffering
(imagined, remembered, or present) is what determines the choice.

I think of the emotion more as a side-effect of the conflict. It can be
turned on by imagined perceptions just as well as real ones. I define
emotion as sensed physiological states produced by preparation for action,
so it's driven by error signals just as muscle action is.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Nevin (80409.1045 EDT)]

Bill Powers (980410.0353 MDT) --

[In] conflict in which one control system at the higher level

[assumes control and the other ceases to control]

It seems to me that the emotion associated with the pain and suffering
(imagined, remembered, or present) is what determines the choice.

I think of the emotion more as a side-effect of the conflict. It can be
turned on by imagined perceptions just as well as real ones. I define
emotion as sensed physiological states produced by preparation for action,
so it's driven by error signals just as muscle action is.

I can see that emotion may be "associated with" pain because of error
controlling a perception "pain = zero".

The question is, when two control systems are in conflict and the conflict
is resoved by one taking over control and the other ceasing to control,
what determines which does which?

The question behind that is, why does one cease to control? In conflict,
neither relinquishes control. But we don't always stay stuck in conflict.

Maybe this is my misconception about the method of levels.

     ECS-a ECS-b
          \ /
            p

There are two elementary control systems (ECS) simultaneously controlling
perception p, each with its own distinct reference level for p. I
understood that in conflict we concentrate on the level of perception p and
when we go up a level we attend to the level of ECS-a and ECS-b. Perhaps
this is my misconception.

Is it rather that we attend to the next level above them?

          ECS-2
          / \
     ECS-1a ECS-1b
          \ /
            p

At a level of control somewhere above both ECS-1a and ECS-1b we control
some other perception, such as urgency, or ethical priority, or sequence of
tasks, or something else with input from the lower-level ECSs. The mother
outside the burning building makes a decision. Imagination of living on
without that child and of living with the memory of its preventable death
may play a role.

  BN

[From Bill Powers (980411.0747 MDT)]

Bruce Nevin (80409.1045 EDT)--

The question is, when two control systems are in conflict and the conflict
is resoved by one taking over control and the other ceasing to control,
what determines which does which?

etc.

See Kent McClelland's models of conflicting control systems.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bill Powers (940823.0815 MDT)]

Rick Marken (949822.2100 MDT) --

Once the conflict is identified and agreed on (as an actual conflict)
perhaps we could see if a dialog, informed by an understanding of the
adverseries as hierarchically organized control systems, could lead to
reasonable agreement, with Bill P. acting as the PCT "umpire". This
would be a nice way to see if the "method of levels" could be applied
by the mediator in a conflict. Bill P. could act as the PCT
depolarizer.

You really want to make it tough for me, don't you? After I have been
spouting off on the side opposed to Bill Leach, he's supposed to accept
me as a mediator? In order to do what you say, I would have to get rid
of all my prejudices and preconceptions (Shazam!) and settle into a
mind-reading mode where I cease to care about the outcome and want only
to see a resolution. Perhaps that's possible, who knows?

But a bigger problem is whether anyone really wants to see any
particular one of these conflicts resolved. When a person goes into
psychotherapy, I imagine that it's usually because of an internal
conflict which is very painful and debilitating; the person has reached
the stage where anything would be better than suffering the conflict any
further. When two people are involved in a conflict, however, what is
there that would lead either one to risk giving up a strongly-held point
of view? Is the conflict of ideas between you and Bill Leach so painful
to either of you that each of you would rather modify your views about
gun control, the role of government, environmentalism, and so forth
rather than continue to disagree with other?

The parties involved in any conflict have to have some reason to want to
resolve it, knowing that doing so may leave them holding different views
from what they hold now. This is the first barrier that has to be
overcome in any conflict resolution, inter- or intrapersonal. When this
process is finished, will I still be me? What will happen to all the
things I value if I end up changing my mind about anything?

Obviously, trying to resolve a conflict at the level of the conflict --
marshalling new arguments, new facts -- will only expand it, because
each party will select arguments and facts that support one view but not
the other. The only resolution that can occur requires going up a level,
one or more. Mary and I were just talking about conflicts in the Senate,
where the question is rapidly becoming whether the Senate itself can
continue as a functioning body. If the senators could go up a level,
they would become concerned with the welfare of the institution, and see
that perpetuating the conflicts on specific subjects may well destroy
everyone's ability to accomplish anything. According to an article in
the latest New Yorker, there were 13 filibusters in the 19th century, 50
in the first half of the 20th, and 200 in the second half. At some point
the filibuster will make conflict resolution in the senate impossible,
because it changes the basic concept of majority rule. So which is then
more important: to makes one's own point of view prevail, or to preserve
the system that makes having a point of view pertinent at all?

So, is there any reason for either party here to want to resolve this
conflict between important convictions?

ยทยทยท

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Best to all,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (940823.1150)]

Bill Powers (940823.0815 MDT) --

Is the conflict of ideas between you and Bill Leach so painfulto either of
you that each of you would rather modify your views about gun control, the
role of government, environmentalism, and so forth rather than continue to
disagree with other?

Hmm. Now that you mention it, I guess it's really not very painful at all. In
fact, I kindda like my bleeding heart liberal, soft- headed commie- pinko
views and I don't really mind being in conflict with people who don't share
them. After all, the people who don't share my views are not only wrong, but
they have chosen to be that way voluntarily ;-).

Best

Rick

<[Bill Leach 940823.23:05 EST(EDT)]

[Rick Marken (940823.1150)]

You'll think "painless" you "commie-pinko, bleeding heart liberal..." you
:slight_smile:

<[Bill Leach 940823.22:49 EST(EDT)]

[Bill Powers (940823.0815 MDT)]

<chuckle> Bill;

While I believe now that you have "blind sides" the same as anyone else
(including myself of course), I don't really have any doubts concerning
your "drive" to remain honest and true to PCT principles in the role as
mediator.

I fully admit that the "whole thing" could be fruitless but I doubt it.
I like to believe that you will even "turn your back upon" your
"favorite" beliefs if by not doing so you would be "untrue" to PCT.
Indeed, it is not that aspect of this exercise that I wonder about.

I don't worry any about the idea that by accepting that I have been wrong
in my thinking that I will "become any less me" than I was before. I
really like to think rather that if my thinking changes because of some
effort on my part that I am "becoming more me" than I was before.

The real problem with what is proposed is that at this point I don't yet
see how conflict can be resolved. In part that is because I know that
neither Rick nor I are will in a "real" conflict. That is, even though
we likely disagree strongly each of us knows that the opinion of the
other does not really affect his life. However, since I believe that we
both have some reasonable respect for each other and for each other's
opinion, such an attempt could at least be a valuable learning experience
(for me anyway).

-bill