contingencies, coercive and non-coercive

[From Bruce Nevin (980514.1339 EDT)]

Contingencies limit choice. Not all contingencies are coercive.

I need air to breathe. This biological contingency limits my choices. I
can't stay under water a long time without a clunky breathing apparatus.
There is no control system creating this contingency other than my own
body. This contingency is not coercive.

Rick, being a public-spirited individual, is restraining me from typing
foolish and provocative things by twisting my arm up behind my back. This
physical contingency limits my choices. I have to type with one hand, and
if I type something he thinks is foolish or provocative, he twists the
other arm harder and I stop to deal with the pain. (Outch!) There is a
control system other than my own body that is creating this contingency.
This contingency is coercive.

In between these extremes of clearly non-coercive and clearly coercive
contingencies there are other contingencies where the distinction is not so
easy to make.

Something I desire greatly is down there in the water. I have to stay under
water for a protracted period if I am to look for it and (hopefully) find
it. The "I need air to breathe" biological contingency is not coercive. But
Rick has thrown my precious baubel into the water, knowing of this
contingency. He has a scuba outfit that he is happy to let me use, for a
fee. That contingency seems more coercive now that Rick is using it for his
advantage.

Under the logic that is being applied to RTP (with only a bit of a
stretch), the "I need air to breathe" contingency was always coercive,
because there was always the threat that someone might use it to force my
choices. Or perhaps that biological contingency together with the social
principle of setting prices "as high as the market will bear" (supply and
demand), which in other contexts is likewise not coercive.

There is a distinction to be made here along a continuum of use and
intention ranging from an impersonal fact about the environment to
usurpation of the use of one's body. I'm sure someone else here will be
able to express this distinction more clearly and succinctly than this
groping attempt.

  Bruce Nevin

[From Bruce Nevin (980514.1517 EDT)]

Rick Marken (980514.1100)--

Given this [that the "state" is people], what might it mean to
"smash the state"? Aside from blowing up buildings, etc., which
clearly misses the mark.

I think it means killing people.

I know that's what you think. You have told us before. Given that "the
state" and other coercive systems "are perceptions that are controlled by
individuals" (your 980514.0835) and have no basis in the environment other
than that, how might you change "the state" and suchlike coercive systems
other than by killing people? Isn't it possible for this to mean something
else?

Under the logic that is being applied to RTP (with only a bit of a
stretch), the "I need air to breathe" contingency was always
coercive, because there was always the threat that someone might
use it to force my choices.

Then you haven't understood the "logic that is being applied to RTP".
Coercion is when one person acts (without regard to the intentions
of another) to control some aspect of the behavior of that person.

We're not talking about coercion. We're talking about coercive systems,
which are coercive even when noone is currently acting to control some
aspect of the behavior of another person because nothing that person is
doing causes error in anyone who might use the coercive system.

This is what is happening in RTP when a kid is offered the choice
of staying and behaving or going to the RTP room. If the kid would
prefer to choose shooting the teacher that option will not be
tolerated; the kid will be prevented from producing that desired
result; this is coercion.

This is indeed coercion, when someone physically constrains the kid from
shooting the teacher.

But your claim is that the kid's imagining what would happen if he tried
it, and therefore not trying it, is also coercion. No one is currently
acting to control some aspect of the kid's behavior. But the kid knows
about police, jails, etc., so the threat of someone using those
contingencies to force her choices makes them coercive now, by way of the
kid's imagining of consequences.

The police, jails, etc. are contingencies that the teacher is using to
constrain the kids choices to two: participate without disruption, or
withdraw to a designated place that does not require participation. This is
your claim, is it not?

I am observing that there is outright coercion, and there are contingencies
that involve no agency ("not a control system") and are not maintained by
other control systems (the need to breathe air), and in between there are
contingencies that are control systems (police) or that are maintained by
control systems (jail). Any of these contingencies might be used to coerce
you on one occasion and not on another. Coercing is done by a control
system that is present and currently constraining your behavior. The
coercing system might use contingencies that are present (hand on arm) or
imagined (the cops will get you).

Your claim is that if the threat of using those contingencies is the means
of constraining choices, then those contingencies are themselves coercive.
Do you deny this?

  Bruce Nevin

[From Bill Powers (980515.0218 MDT)]

Bruce Nevin (980514.1517 EDT)--

Writing to Rick Marken):

But your claim is that the kid's imagining what would happen if he tried
it, and therefore not trying it, is also coercion. No one is currently
acting to control some aspect of the kid's behavior. But the kid knows
about police, jails, etc., so the threat of someone using those
contingencies to force her choices makes them coercive now, by way of the
kid's imagining of consequences.

This point comes up in various contexts. The question is, when no action is
taking place, how can you tell if a control system is present?

To answer this question, let's use our car example as an illustration.

First, we set up a car on a truly straight and level road, in still air, so
that without anyone steering the car it will travel at least a mile while
remaining in its proper lane. This is a matter of carefully aligning the
wheels, equalizing wheel friction, making the car aerodynamically
symmetrical, and setting the neutral point of the steering linkage with
micrometer precision. In this phase of the example, there is no control
system.

In the second phase, we install some kind of control system, perhaps one
that senses a buried cable and operates the steering linkage to keep the
car centered over the cable. When the roadbed tilts or a crosswind blows,
the car will start drifting to one side or other other, and this control
system will turn the wheel as required to keep the car centered over the
cable. We can detect the control actions by watching the steering wheel; if
a crosswind arises from the right, we will see the wheel turn to the right.

Now let's combine these phases. We bury the cable under the same straight
level road and run the car on it in still air. There is a switch that can
turn the control system on or off. We now observe the car travelling down
this road repeatedly. On all runs, we see that the car remains centered in
its lane and the steering wheel remains centered. Is there anything we see
that will tell us whether the switch is on or off during a given run?

There is not. We can't tell whether there is an active control system in
the car.

The question for the student is then, "What must be done to find out if
there is an active control system in the car?" I've already said what it
is, above, but the student has to recognize it and explain why it's needed.

For extra credit, the student can then apply this principle to see whether
the procedures used in a school do or do not involve the control of
students' behavior.

Here is a little demo that might give some insights.

Lay out a branching pathway on the floor with masking tape, on a large
enough scale that a person could walk it like a maze. From point A on one
side of the room to point B on the other, there should be a number of
different ways to travel from A to B.

Now have a fairly small test subject stand at point A, with a fairly large
person on each side, each holding one arm with both hands. These people,
the "guides," have agreed on a path from A to B. On the start signal, they
guide the person between them along the right path by pushing or pulling on
the arms as hard as necessary (in silence).

This is done perhaps 5 times, or until the guides agree that they did not
have to pull on the test subject during the travel from A to B. Then the
various participants are asked to describe what happened. In particular,
they are asked whether the path that was traveled during the first and last
trials resulted from the application of force by the guides to the test
subject (in reality, all three are test subjects).

I think a great deal can be learned from this demo.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Bruce Nevin (980515.1123 EDT)]

Bill Powers (980515.0218 MDT) --

I have no trouble understanding that a control system controls even when it
is doing nothing (when there is currently no disturbance to resist).

What I am trying to get is clarification of what you mean by a "coercive
system."

It seems to me that you cannot refer to a thing as coercive unless you also
claim that it is a control system. I don't believe that you are claiming
that a system such as a school system or a government ("the state") is a
control system. So I find the term confusing, and much of the discussion
seems confused.

  Bruce Nevin

[From Bill Powers (980617.0527 MDT)]

Bruce Nevin (980515.1123 EDT)--

I have no trouble understanding that a control system controls even when it
is doing nothing (when there is currently no disturbance to resist).

What I am trying to get is clarification of what you mean by a "coercive
system."

It seems to me that you cannot refer to a thing as coercive unless you also
claim that it is a control system. I don't believe that you are claiming
that a system such as a school system or a government ("the state") is a
control system. So I find the term confusing, and much of the discussion
seems confused.

Since only human beings are control systems of the necessary kind, you are
right. No social system is literally a control system, hence no social
system can actually coerce anyone.

However, individuals can coerce, both separately and in cooperation against
a third party, and they can do so in support of their belief that they're
defending a certain kind of social system. When they agree on coercion as a
principle, codify their rules of conduct and record them in stone or on
paper, and act in concert to enforce them, they can produce what looks very
much like a social system that coerces. We know that the responsibility for
the coercion always lies within each individual who supports and implements
the principles of coercion. However, to the victim of coercion, it seems as
if the individual coercers are interchangeable and faceless. The victim
feels like one against many -- like one person against a System.

When I used to claim that there is no such thing as The System, I was
thinking only of the plain fact that only human beings (or other living
systems) can have goals and control. But I was forgetting that people write
things down and create artifacts both physical and organizational. When you
go to work for General Motors, you fill a slot with responsibilities that
are already laid out for you; they are the "company's goals", not your own.
Accepting those goals is a condition of employment. And who makes this
condition? Another employee who had to accept enforcing the conditions of
employment on you as a condition of his own employment. Somehow the
company's goals have attained an existence of their own, as if "General
Motors" had attained the status of a living system. The company's goals may
be written down or exist by common consent, but they are nobody's goals in
particular. They are the residue of many previous generations. Yet if you
don't accept them as more important than yours, you won't be working there
for long.

A social system as I think of it is an organization in which individuals
fill functional positions, but in which policy has developed over many
generations of individuals and is no longer tied to any one of them. A
person who wants to work within the system is required to adopt its
publicly and privately stated rules. Some of the people are, in fact,
assigned to perceive whether everyone does adhere to the procedures and
principles of the system, and others are assigned the role of enforcing the
rules -- punishing or dismissing individuals who go against them.

A coercive social system, then, is simply one in which the rules of conduct
mandate and require some people to be coercers of other people who interact
with or within the system. An obvious example is the legal system, one part
of which consists of people devoted to devising and writing down rules
intended to apply to everyone's behavior, another part which consists of
people who judge whether individuals have obeyed them, and still another
part consists of people hired to apply sanctions to those who have broken
the rules, with authority to apply as much force as necessary up to and
including lethal force. Individuals carry out each branch of these
functions, but the roles are built into the system and persist despite the
constant turnover of personnel.

I count a system as coercive not on the basis of whether force is actually
used on people, but on the basis of whether there are provisions in the
system's rules for the _automatic_ application of force (to the degree
required) when deviations from the rules occur. If the amount of force
permitted and required by the rules of the system increases with the degree
of the infraction, then the system is clearly designed to mimic a control
system, and what is controlled is the behavior of the people to whom the
rules apply.

The degree of coercion is measured by two things: first, the limits on the
amount of force that can be applied (in a prison or a bad part of a city,
those limits may extend to killing people if that's required to control
their behavior); and second, the sensitivity to small infractions (how
rapidly the countermeasures grow in magnitude as the size of the infraction
increases). If the limits on force are set high and the sensitivity to
infractions is also set high, we have the equivalent of a brutal
concentration camp in which every behavior that is not demanded is
forbidden, and punishment for the slightest infraction is swift and severe.

By my definition, any system with enforced rules is coercive, provided that
sanctions are automatically applied in proportion to deviations from the
rules. This means that all school systems, all social systems for that
matter, are coercive, because all of them that I know about have rules, and
the rules include prescriptions for automatic penalties for infractions.
Such systems are clearly set up in the attempt to control people's behavior.

This does not mean that all social systems are equally coercive. They
clearly are not. Some restrict the use of force so much, and allow such
large deviations before any penalties are applied, that control of behavior
is entirely ineffective and might as well not exist. There are all degrees
of coerciveness in social organizations from that might-as-well-not-exist
level to the level of a maximum security death camp.

From the standpoint of the victim, coercion is one end of a scale, the

other end of which is freedom. The same action may seem coerced or freely
chosen, depending on whether the system is designed to control your
behavior or simply has no rule for that behavior or no mechanism to
enforce that rule. If there is a rule and enforcement for the action you
are performing, any lack of freedom shows up the moment you try to vary
that action, to do something a different way. Then you discover that you
are free only to obey the rule, and that any deviation will automatically
produce forces from other people intended to make your action return to the
required form. The sense of freedom is destroyed as soon as you find that
your "freely chosen" behavior is in fact required by someone else and that
you're not permitted to act any differently.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Tim Carey (980518.0730)]

[From Bill Powers (980617.0527 MDT)]

required form. The sense of freedom is destroyed as soon as you find that
your "freely chosen" behavior is in fact required by someone else and

that

you're not permitted to act any differently.

I thought PCT was a theory about an individual's subjective experience. How
can you say that _every_ individual's sense of freedom (whatever that is)
is destroyed as soon as they find out that their behaviour is required by
someone else and that you're not permitted to act differently.

I think this says a lot more about your own personal preferences Bill than
it does about any fundamental laws of human behaviour. Or are you proposing
this as a fundamental law?

Cheers,

Tim

i.kurtzer (980518.1800)

great post bruce n.