# Control and conflict, part deux

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/control-and-conflict-part-deux/2919>\
**Category:** CSG1994\
**Created:** [February 3, 1994, 12:08am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/control-and-conflict-part-deux/2919 "1994-02-03T00:08:09Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 2\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Marken\_Richard\_S1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Marken\_Richard\_S1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marken_Richard_S1)\
**Post date:** [February 3, 1994, 12:08am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/control-and-conflict-part-deux/2919/1 "1994-02-03T00:08:09Z")

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[From Rick Marken (940202.1600)]

Bill Leach (01 Feb 1994 21:57:30) --

Me:

> It makes no sense to say that you lost control of a reference signal.

Bill L.

> Is it not possible that some appearent psychological problems could be  
> due to just that (loss of control signal)?

I just meant that control systems can't control their reference signals:  
they don't sense the state of referernce signals or act to bring them to  
a particular value. Since you (as a collection of control systems) have no  
control over your reference signals, you cannot lose control of them.

Psychological problems could result from loss of a control signal  
(where I am understanding "control signal" to be synonymous with  
"reference signal") but that is different that losing control OF THAT  
SIGNAL. Losing a control (reference) signal could result in a loss  
of control of some perception(s) (which would look and feel like  
having a "psychological problem"); but that is losing control of a  
perception, not of a reference signal.

JIM DUNDON (940201 0026) said:

> Getting back to two people fighting. Are they losing control  
> or controlling within the limits of their chosen reference  
> perceptions.

I said:

> ... I leave as an exercise...

Bill L. says:

> I suggest that the answer might be well, yes... and no.  
> Of course we can't answer the question because we do not know the  
> reference signals nor the perceptions.

I think we can make some reasonable guesses. It seems to me that  
when people are fighting it is because they are both trying to get  
nearly the same perceeptual variable into two different states.  
For example, one person want's THAT woman and only that woman  
(regardless of what the woman wants, of course) and the other person  
wants only her too. Fighting is output that is going to the limit  
in order to produce the desred perception (and overcome the disturbing  
output produced by the other control system; first the two people were  
discussing, then arguing, then yelling, then pushing, etc. The outputs of  
each just keep getting bigger and bigger, a process that only stops  
when 1) one of the people physically overwhelms the other 2) both parties  
physically exhaust their output production capabilties or 3) one or both  
of the parties is able to change goals. But while the conflict is in  
progress (while the parties are escalating from "having words" to "stepping  
into the alley") neither party is in control (neither is getting the  
desired perception). If, individually, each person was once in control  
(Big Bad Bill could get Seismic Sadie any time he wanted before Rackish  
Rick mosied into town, or vice versa) then when the other person showed up  
one could say that BOTH "lost" control (over the perception of  
Seismic Sadie as "his").

So my answer to Jim's question would be: two people fighting have  
lost control if they once had control, individually, of the variable  
involved in the conflict; whether they had it or not before, they  
don't have control as long as they are in conflict. They are only  
in conflict as long as the output limits of each party to the  
conflict can match the output limits of the other.

Best

Rackish Rick

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**Author:** ![Bill\_Leach1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/848f3c/32.png) [@Bill\_Leach1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Leach1)\
**Post date:** [February 3, 1994, 6:19am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/control-and-conflict-part-deux/2919/2 "1994-02-03T06:19:19Z")

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\<Bill Leach 03 Feb 1994 00:46:57

> [From Rick Marken (940202.1600)]

> I just meant that control systems can't control their reference signals:

Thanks, coming to terms again...

> So my answer to Jim's question would be: two people fighting have  
> lost control if they once had control, individually, of the variable

Assuming of course that the objective of one of the two parties was not  
to get into a fight with the other in the first place.

-bill