Controlled Quantity

[Rick Marken 2018-05-26_22:34:54]

Philip 5/26 13:23
PY: Rick refers to q.i as a hypothesis and as a perception of the researcher (or the researcher's surrogate).Â
"q.i is a perception in the researcher (or the researcher's surrogate, such as a computer), which, when there is sufficient evidence from the test, is presumed to correspond to the perception, p, that S is controlling." -Rick
PY: The way his sentence is written makes it seem as though q.i may, at the same time, not correspond to the perception, p, that S is controlling, as well as still be a perception in the researcher. What is a false hypothesis in PCT? Is it a perception? an imagination?

RM: A false hypothesis in PCT is a guess about what an organism is controlling that turns out to be wrong. In the coin game, for example, my first hypothesis about what is being controlled -- my first guess about q.i -- might be the size order of the coins. This hypothesis may be based on the fact I perceive the coins arranged from small to large. So I apply disturbances by changing the size order of the coins pattern in various ways and find that some changes are resisted and some aren't. So size order is not controlled. So I come up with a new hypothesis about q.i -- perhaps the pattern of the coins because I perceive that the coins have remained in a straight line. So I apply disturbances by moving the coins from the line and find again that some disturbances are resisted and some aren't. So the pattern of the coins is not controlled. So I keep coming up with new hypotheses -- new guesses about q.i -- until I come up with a guess about q.i to which all disturbances are resisted. Perhaps it's the order of the dates; perhaps it's the relative thickness of the coins; perhaps the relative wear of the coins. But each guess about what is being controlled is a guess about whether my (or my surrogate's) perception of a possible controlled quantity, q.i, is controlled by S and, thus, corresponds to the perception S is controlling.
Best

[Rick Marken 2018-05-26_12:03:32]

Martin Taylor (2018.05.25. 23 13)--

RM: The problem is thinking of p as a function of q.i. You have to remember that q.i is not an environmental variable; it is a function of environmental variables,

MT: The question that underlies this often-repeated statement is whether a particular function of environmental variables corresponds to a structure that exists in Real Reality (RR).

RM: No, I think this is not really relevant to my point I am making about the relationship between q.i and p. I'll try another approach.
RM: I think the difference between p and q.i becomes obvious when you actually do research on PCT. The "coin game" described in B:CP is one example of PCT research that illustrates the relationship between q.i and p rather nicely. E's hypotheses about the aspect of the coins that S is controlling are E's own perceptions of different aspect of the coins -- different q.i's. For example, one hypothesis about the aspect of the coins being controlled is the pattern of the coins (straight line, Z pattern, etc); another is the relative size of the coins; another is the relative value of the dates on the coin. All these hypotheses about q.i are E's perceptions that might correspond to the perception, p, that S is controlling. The goal of the test is for E to find his own perception of an aspect of the coins, his own q.i, that corresponds to the aspect of the coins, p, that S is controlling. This happens when E finds that S corrects for all disturbances to q.i, the current hypothesis about the controlled variable.Â
RM: E's perception of q.i need not be a "direct" perception of the hypothetical controlled variable, as it is in the coin game, where E uses his own perceptual system to see whether S is controlling the pattern, relative size, relative value of the dates, or something else about the coins. Indeed, in formal PCT research the hypothesis, q.i, about the perception, p, S is controlling is typically computed by a computer rather than E's own perceptual systems. An example of this kind of research is our paper on intercepting toy helicopters:
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/eymkj4bxuorpyuy/Chasin'Choppers.pdf?dl=0&gt;&gt;&gt; Dropbox - Chasin'Choppers.pdf - Simplify your life

RM: This paper was meant to be an example of how to study behavior from a PCT perspective. The behavior under study was object interception -- running to intercept a relatively randomly moving toy helicopter. Several different hypotheses about the perceptions that S is controlling in this situation were tested. These hypotheses are E's perception, q.i, of the perception being controlled by S, p, just as in the coin game. But these hypotheses about p -- these q.i -- were defined by mathematical functions and computed by a computer. The test was done by putting different computed values of q.i into a model (as the perceptual variable, p) of S's behavior to see which resulted in the closest fit to S's behavior.Â
RM: There is another example of doing the test by having the computer compute the hypothetical controlled variable in Marken, R. S. (2014) Testing for Controlled Variables: A Model-Based Approach to Determining the Perceptual Basis of Behavior, Attention, Perception and Psychophysics, 76, 255-263, which is reprinted as Chapter 4 in "Doing Research on Purpose" (<https://www.amazon.com/Doing-Research-Purpose-Experimental-Psychology/dp/0944337554/&gt;https://www.amazon.com/Doing-Research-Purpose-Experimental-Psychology/dp/0944337554/\). In that paper two different hypotheses about the perception controlled in a tracking task are tested. The two different hypotheses are two different mathematical functions that define for E the perceptions -- q.i -- that might correspond to the perception - p -- that is controlled by S. Again, these hypotheses are tested using modeling.Â
RM: Another way to get a sense of the relationship between q.i and p is by doing the hierarchical control demo at <http://www.mindreadings.com/ControlDemo/Hierarchy.html&gt;http://www.mindreadings.com/ControlDemo/Hierarchy.html\. In this case, you are S and the computer is E. The computer has three hypotheses -- three different q.i -- about the perception, p, you are controlling: one q.i is shape, another is direction of movement and the third is the sequence of shapes. The computer tests the hypothesis about the perception you are controlling by seeing which perception is best protected from disturbance, which is measured as the proportion of a trial that each hypothetical controlled perception -- each q.i -- is kept in a reference state.Â
RM: I hope you can see that when you actually get down to rolling up your sleeves and doing PCT research the relationship between q.i and p becomes quite apparent: q.i is a perception in the researcher (or the researcher's surrogate, such as a computer), which, when there is sufficient evidence from the test, is presumed to correspond to the perception, p, that S is controlling.
BestÂ
Rick

That is something we can never know for sure, but what we can know is that if we have a perceptual function that does not correspond reasonably closely to some true property of RR, controlling it isn't going to do much to help our intrinsic variables maintain us in good condition, so reorganization will tend to remove it more quickly than it would remove perceptual functions that do correspond to real structures in RR. Controlling those variables has a better chance of producing side-effects that are valuable for keeping intrinsic variables in good condition. The same goes in spades for perceptual functions that might have been developed by evolution because they are likely to correspond to structures that have persisted in RR over evolutionary time.

The takeaway is that transient perceptual functions (and arbitrary ones programmed into robots) have no necessary relationship with structures in RR, but persistent perceptual functions probably do. Going back to what I think lies behind Rick's statement, all perceptual functions produce perceptions by manipulating a bunch of variables. Some of them have outputs that change in the same way that a property of the environment does when a particular input variable is changed. For these, q.i is likely to be a value of a variable in the environment, not simply a mirror of the perceptual function output "p". For the ones that don't, there is no structure in the environment that is constrained to vary as the perceptual function output does when one of the input variables changes. For these, q.i is a synthetic variable imposed on the environment by the perceptual function, not a variable constrained by a structure in the environment.

To make this concrete, suppose that in RR there is something that produces the visual appearance we call a simple table, with four legs and a top. Maybe there is a table there, but maybe the visual appearance is a contrived illusion. You try placing the perceived table top in a desired location. If the visual appearance of "table" is the result of there being a real table "out there", then when you move the table top, all the legs will move as well, and they will move in ways that cause the 3-D perceptual appearance of "table" to be invariant. If the table is rotated, then the legs will move to keep each one under the same bit of the table top, and so forth. On the other hand, if it was an illusion, you might move the table top and find that one or more of the legs does not come along. That (non-)table was a construction created by your perceptual function. The one that kept its 3-D shape might also have been, but it is much more likely that the table was real than is the case of the one that did not keep its shape.

The important concept here is that there are two feedback processes involved. One is the immediate control of perception now, the other is a slow reorganization loop that changes perceptual functions according to what is really out there, bringing perceptual functions more into alignment with Real Reality. In this loop Boss Reality acts on the internal structure of the organism, tuning the perceptual functions that produce the perceptions that are controlled by influencing Real Reality. It was in this sense that Powers called the influence of Real Reality on organisms "Boss Reality". Boss Reality determines what actually happens, and perceptual control develops over the eons and over individual lives toward a state in which perceptual reality approaches, but never exactly matches, some part of Real Reality.

Martin

--
Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you

···

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Richard Marken <<mailto:csgnet@lists.illinois.edu>csgnet@lists.illinois.edu> wrote:

have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

--
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[Rick Marken 2018-05-26_22:40:23]

[Martin Taylor 2018.05.26.16.54]

MT: The question that underlies this often-repeated statement is whether a particular function of environmental variables corresponds to a structure that exists in Real Reality (RR).

RM: No, I think this is not really relevant to my point I am making about the relationship between q.i and p. I'll try another approach.

MT: If not, then how is your point relevant to the preceding years=log discussion about whether q.i was a measure of anything in the real environment?

RM: It's not.Â
Â

MT: Your q.i is a perception in the experimenter, not a value in the environment. What does that have to do with anything other than seeking the controlled variable in experiments?

RM: It has nothing to to with anything other than testing for the controlled variable. I thought this discussion was about PCT research, not epistemology. I think constructivism is an epistemology that is particularly compatible with the science of PCT. But once you start doing research on PCT, epistemology pretty much becomes a non-issue. Try the coin game and if you succeed at guessing the variable S is controlling (the variable that is q.i from your perspective) you'll see how little epistemology contributed to your success.
BestÂ
Rick

···

--
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[Rick Marken 2018-05-27_21:44:20]

[Bruce Nevin 2018-05-26_19:52:28 ET]
 Â

FN: I will agree that “cupsâ€? is a variable. They can vary in size, shape, color, composition, etc.Â

Â

FN: That said, I stand by my earlier assertion that the cup in front of me is not. It is what it is; it does not vary.

BN: It is a controlled variable with an unchanging reference value for its physical integrity as a cup.

RM: The cup can't be a controlled variable but variable aspects of the cup can be controlled. The easiest ones to control are things like its color, position and contents, for example. Size and shape can be varied if you are a potter making the cup.Â

BN: Collectively controlled, if someone else in your household also does the dishes and endeavors not to break any.

RM: This is control of degree of brokenness, another variable aspect of the cup, and can be (and typically is) controlled on an individual basis; I haven't heard of collectives of people joining together to control for Fred's cup (or any cup) being unbroken.Â
BestÂ
Rick

Â

···

If this particular cup evokes memories that you enjoy perceiving in imagination ('sentimental value'), then you probably control it with especially high gain.
Control occurs over a wide range of time scales.

/Bruce

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 11:42 AM, "Bruce Abbott" <<mailto:csgnet@lists.illinois.edu>csgnet@lists.illinois.edu> wrote:

[Bruce Abbott (2018.05.26.1140 EDT)]

Â

Fred Nickols (2018.05.26.0533 ET)

Â

I will agree that “cupsâ€? is a variable. They can vary in size, shape, color, composition, etc.Â

Â

That said, I stand by my earlier assertion that the cup in front of me is not. It is what it is; it does not vary.

Â

Exactly so!

Â

Bruce

Â

From: Bruce Nevin (<mailto:bnhpct@gmail.com>bnhpct@gmail.com via csgnet Mailing List) <<mailto:csgnet@lists.illinois.edu>csgnet@lists.illinois.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2018 9:07 PM
To: Erling Jorgensen <<mailto:EJorgensen@riverbendcmhc.org>EJorgensen@riverbendcmhc.org>
Cc: CSG <<mailto:csgnet@lists.illinois.edu>csgnet@lists.illinois.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: Controlled Quantity

Â

[Bruce Nevin 2018-05-25_21:06:16 ET]

Â

Fred proposed that 'amount of coffee in the cup' is a variable but the coffee cup is not (Fred Nickols 2018.05.22.1446 ET).

Â

Erling said no, the cup is a variable because you could have used a glass to drink your coffee (Erling Jorgensen 201805.22 1550 EDT).

Â

Rick said the cup is a state of variable that he called 'type of drinking vessel' (Rick Marken 2018-05-22_17:48:57).

Â

If I wanted to point out some slippery ground here, I could paraphrase 'type of drinking vessel' as 'affordance for drinking'.

Â

Imagine a collection of drinking vessels of many kinds. Over here are coffee cups, with their more delicate kin, the teacups, shrinking back from those ruffians, the mugs, each of these with its handle. Except for those styrofoam coffee cups, and some of the paper cups, which have no handle. Over there the glasses, eponymously made of glass, have no handles, nor do their heftier kin, the goblets. But oh, there's a stein with a handle; and a flagon with two. And by Jove, here's a coffee cup made of glass.

Â

This seems rather categorial--canonical exemplar with more or less deviant similars, criterial features, some but not all of which may be absent, and judgement influenced by prior set. Among the glassware in my kitchen is a tapered glass 8 oz. tumbler that happens to have a handle. Or so it appears as it stands among the tumblers and smaller glasses. Were I to serve a guest coffee or tea in it, alongside the smaller glass coffeecup that I mentioned above, they'd probably remark on its size, but I suspect they'd still call it a cup, not a glass. I don't currently own a glass beer stein, but if I did, and if I brought it out in that company, it might be a glass again.

Â

My sense of this is that we have different perceptual input functions for these different kinds of drinking vessels. All of them fire to some degree given perceptual inputs associated with drinking. Each of them fires to some degree given input of a certain word or words -- at the least cup vs. glass vs. mug, etc., naming the types. One fires more strongly given perceptions associated with coffee, and so on Ordinarily, there are more and stronger inputs to one of these than to any of the others, and as far as we are concerned that is what we perceive.

Â

I come to this view from puzzling out how in heck we sort out the ambiguities rampant in language. But an important point here is that you don't need language to experience and sort out ambiguity.

Â

A configuration can be perceived (present) to a greater or lesser degree, depending on how well lower-level signals fulfil the array of inputs that the input function for the configuration is constructed to receive. Some, of course, may be supplied out of imagination.

Â

A cup is a perceptual variable that may be perceived as present to a greater degree (as alternative variables are less vividly perceived) or to a lesser degree (as additional perceptual inputs contribute to the perception of some other variable but not to the 'cup' perception).

Â

/Bruce

Â

On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 7:58 AM, "Erling Jorgensen" <<mailto:csgnet@lists.illinois.edu>csgnet@lists.illinois.edu> wrote:

Forgot to 'Reply All' on this message...

Â

Confidentiality: This message is intended only for the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged and confidential under HIPAA, 42CFR Part 2, and/or other applicable State and Federal laws. If you are not the addressee, or the employer or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the material from your computer. Thank you for your cooperation.

Please also note: Under 42 CFR part 2 you are prohibited from making any further disclosure of information that identifies an individual as having or having had a substance use disorder unless it is expressly permitted by the written consent of the individual whose information is being disclosed or as otherwise permitted by 42 CFR Part 2.

>>> Erling Jorgensen 5/25/2018 7:56 AM >>>

[From Erling Jorgensen (2018.05.25 0748 EDT)]Â

>[Rick Marken 2018-05-24_18:21:54]

Â

EJ:Â Just a brief comment, because it's a busy morning.Â

Â

>RM: But your theorist is free to define p as not equivalent to q.i (and apparently he or she has) so you (or someone familiar with your theorist) should be able to demonstrate the empirical basis for this definition.Â

Â

EJ: But what about research that indicates p as a log function of q.i. from the environment? I think there's acoustic research in that vein and I suspect other examples. Why can't we say that perceptual input functions create functions of the environmental input, and so they are not strictly equivalent? 'Strongly correlated' is sufficient for the pragmatics of the Test for Controlled Variables to succeed.Â

Â

EJ:Â Useful discussion, minus some of the snark or ad hominem from one side or the other.Â

Â

All the best,Â

Erling

Â

Â

Â

Â

Â

--
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[Bruce Nevin 2018-05-28_08:45:15 ET]

Yes, just as aspects of a complex perception vary from one member to another of a diverse set of drinking vessels, and when sufficient of these aspects are associated in the perception of one object we perceive a cup (and with even more, and more subtle, aspects we perceive ‘that cup’), likewise the perceived object may lose these attributes and with sufficient loss may no longer be perceived as a cup, or even as a drinking vessel.Â

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘collectives of people joining together’, but when children are helping with taking dishes from the dishwasher and putting them away, and a participating adult says “be careful not to chip those cups”, and the child says “I am, see?”, that is evidence of collective control. The cups are stabilized as environmental means of controlling perceptions (drinking beverages from cups) not only by care not to break them, but also by the washing, drying, and putting away in established places whence they can be taken for use when wanted. When any of the controlled aspects of a ‘clean cup ready for drinking from’ is disturbed, any of those who depend upon the stability of that collectively controlled perception may act to resist the disturbance. “Mom, this cup doesn’t look clean.” “Oh, John didn’t realize that we’d already run the dishwasher when he had a cup and went out fishing early this morning. Here, I’ll clean it by hand.”

···

On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 12:44 AM, Richard Marken csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

[Rick Marken 2018-05-27_21:44:20]

[Bruce Nevin 2018-05-26_19:52:28 ET]
 Â

FN: I will agree that “cupsâ€? is a variable. They can vary in size, shape, color, composition, etc.Â

Â

FN: That said, I stand by my earlier assertion that the cup in front of me is not. It is what it is; it does not vary.

BN: It is a controlled variable with an unchanging reference value for its physical integrity as a cup.

RM: The cup can’t be a controlled variable but variable aspects of the cup can be controlled. The easiest ones to control are things like its color, position and contents, for example. Size and shape can be varied if you are a potter making the cup.Â

BN: Collectively controlled, if someone else in your household also does the dishes and endeavors not to break any.

RM: This is control of degree of brokenness, another variable aspect of the cup, and can be (and typically is) controlled on an individual basis; I haven’t heard of collectives of people joining together to control for Fred’s cup (or any cup) being unbroken.Â

BestÂ

Rick

Â

If this particular cup evokes memories that you enjoy perceiving in imagination (‘sentimental value’), then you probably control it with especially high gain.

Control occurs over a wide range of time scales.

/Bruce


Richard S. MarkenÂ

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 11:42 AM, “Bruce Abbott” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

[Bruce Abbott (2018.05.26.1140 EDT)]

Â

Fred Nickols (2018.05.26.0533 ET)

Â

I will agree that “cupsâ€? is a variable. They can vary in size, shape, color, composition, etc.Â

Â

That said, I stand by my earlier assertion that the cup in front of me is not. It is what it is; it does not vary.

Â

Exactly so!

Â

Bruce

Â

From: Bruce Nevin (bnhpct@gmail.com via csgnet Mailing List) csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2018 9:07 PM
To: Erling Jorgensen EJorgensen@riverbendcmhc.org
Cc: CSG csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Controlled Quantity

Â

[Bruce Nevin 2018-05-25_21:06:16 ET]

Â

Fred proposed that ‘amount of coffee in the cup’ is a variable but the coffee cup is not (Fred Nickols 2018.05.22.1446 ET).

Â

Erling said no, the cup is a variable because you could have used a glass to drink your coffee (Erling Jorgensen 201805.22 1550 EDT).

Â

Rick said the cup is a state of variable that he called ‘type of drinking vessel’ (Rick Marken 2018-05-22_17:48:57).

Â

If I wanted to point out some slippery ground here, I could paraphrase ‘type of drinking vessel’ as ‘affordance for drinking’.

Â

Imagine a collection of drinking vessels of many kinds. Over here are coffee cups, with their more delicate kin, the teacups, shrinking back from those ruffians, the mugs, each of these with its handle. Except for those styrofoam coffee cups, and some of the paper cups, which have no handle. Over there the glasses, eponymously made of glass, have no handles, nor do their heftier kin, the goblets. But oh, there’s a stein with a handle; and a flagon with two. And by Jove, here’s a coffee cup made of glass.

Â

This seems rather categorial–canonical exemplar with more or less deviant similars, criterial features, some but not all of which may be absent, and judgement influenced by prior set. Among the glassware in my kitchen is a tapered glass 8 oz. tumbler that happens to have a handle. Or so it appears as it stands among the tumblers and smaller glasses. Were I to serve a guest coffee or tea in it, alongside the smaller glass coffeecup that I mentioned above, they’d probably remark on its size, but I suspect they’d still call it a cup, not a glass. I don’t currently own a glass beer stein, but if I did, and if I brought it out in that company, it might be a glass again.

Â

My sense of this is that we have different perceptual input functions for these different kinds of drinking vessels. All of them fire to some degree given perceptual inputs associated with drinking. Each of them fires to some degree given input of a certain word or words – at the least cup vs. glass vs. mug, etc., naming the types. One fires more strongly given perceptions associated with coffee, and so on Ordinarily, there are more and stronger inputs to one of these than to any of the others, and as far as we are concerned that is what we perceive.

Â

I come to this view from puzzling out how in heck we sort out the ambiguities rampant in language. But an important point here is that you don’t need language to experience and sort out ambiguity.

Â

A configuration can be perceived (present) to a greater or lesser degree, depending on how well lower-level signals fulfil the array of inputs that the input function for the configuration is constructed to receive. Some, of course, may be supplied out of imagination.

Â

A cup is a perceptual variable that may be perceived as present to a greater degree (as alternative variables are less vividly perceived) or to a lesser degree (as additional perceptual inputs contribute to the perception of some other variable but not to the ‘cup’ perception).

Â

/Bruce

Â

On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 7:58 AM, “Erling Jorgensen” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

Forgot to ‘Reply All’ on this message…

Â

Confidentiality: * This message is intended only for the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged and confidential under HIPAA, 42CFR Part 2, and/or other applicable State and Federal laws. If you are not the addressee, or the employer or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the material from your computer. Thank you for your cooperation.*

Please also note: * Under 42 CFR part 2 you are prohibited from making any further disclosure of information that identifies an individual as having or having had a substance use disorder unless it is expressly permitted by the written consent of the individual whose information is being disclosed or as otherwise permitted by 42 CFR Part 2.*

Erling Jorgensen 5/25/2018 7:56 AM >>>

[From Erling Jorgensen (2018.05.25 0748 EDT)]Â

[Rick Marken 2018-05-24_18:21:54]

Â

EJ:Â Just a brief comment, because it’s a busy morning.Â

Â

RM: But your theorist is free to define p as not equivalent to q.i (and apparently he or she has) so you (or someone familiar with your theorist) should be able to demonstrate the empirical basis for this definition.Â

Â

EJ: But what about research that indicates p as a log function of q.i. from the environment? I think there’s acoustic research in that vein and I suspect other examples. Why can’t we say that perceptual input functions create functions of the environmental input, and so they are not strictly equivalent? ‘Strongly correlated’ is sufficient for the pragmatics of the Test for Controlled Variables to succeed.Â

Â

EJ:Â Useful discussion, minus some of the snark or ad hominem from one side or the other.Â

Â

All the best,Â

Erling

Â

Â

Â

Â

Â

Down…

···

From: Richard Marken (rsmarken@gmail.com via csgnet Mailing List) csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2018 7:35 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Controlled Quantity

[Rick Marken 2018-05-26_22:34:54]

Philip 5/26 13:23

PY: Rick refers to q.i as a hypothesis and as a perception of the researcher (or the researcher’s surrogate).

“q.i is a perception in the researcher (or the researcher’s surrogate, such as a computer), which, when there is sufficient evidence from the test, is presumed to correspond to the perception, p, that S is controlling.” -Rick

PY: The way his sentence is written makes it seem as though q.i may, at the same time, not correspond to the perception, p, that S is controlling, as well as still be a perception in the researcher. What is a false hypothesis in PCT? Is it a perception? an imagination?

RM: A false hypothesis in PCT is a guess about what an organism is controlling that turns out to be wrong.

HB : I don’t recall you getting right anything what organisms control. Your RCT is about controlling in outer environment.

RM : In the coin game, for example, my first hypothesis about what is being controlled – my first guess about q.i – might be the size order of the coins. This hypothesis may be based on the fact I perceive the coins arranged from small to large. So I apply disturbances by changing the size order of the coins pattern in various ways and find that some changes are resisted and some aren’t. So size order is not controlled. So I come up with a new hypothesis about q.i – perhaps the pattern of the coins because I perceive that the coins have remained in a straight line. So I apply disturbances by moving the coins from the line and find again that some disturbances are resisted and some aren’t. So the pattern of the coins is not controlled. So I keep coming up with new hypotheses – new guesses about q.i – until I come up with a guess about q.i to which all disturbances are resisted. Perhaps it’s the order of the dates; perhaps it’s the relative thickness of the coins; perhaps the relative wear of the coins. But each guess about what is being controlled is a guess about whether my (or my surrogate’s) perception of a possible controlled quantity, q.i,

HB : Generally “Controlled quantity” is not something you can “see” in environment of S so you are guessing what is “controlled variable” inside S:

Bill P (B:CP) : Consider once again the meaning of the term controlled quantity. A controlled quantity is controlled only because it is detected by a control system, compared with a reference, and affected by outputs based on the error thus detected. The controlled quantity is defined strictly by the behaving system’s perceptual computers; it may or may not be identifiable as an objective (need I put in quotes?) property of, or entity in, the physical environment. In general an observer will not, therefore, be able to see what a control system is controlling

HB : Important is to understand the difference between “q.i” and “controlled quantity” if you use both terms.

RM : …q.i. is controlled by S and, thus, corresponds to the perception S is controlling.

HB : You just said that “q.i.” is :

RM : ….the difference between q.i and p is that q.i is an observation in E (or a surrogate of E) while p is a theoretical neural signal in S.

HB : What a mess. Now you say that “q.i.” is controlled by S and experimenter (E) is controlling “p”. Or What ?

“P” just “correspond”, it’s some function of q.i. in any LCS. But it’s not controlled at the same time as “p” is. See Martins “rock” example for which you wrote is excellent

Boris

Best

Rick

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Richard Marken csgnet@lists.illinois.edu wrote:

[Rick Marken 2018-05-26_12:03:32]

Martin Taylor (2018.05.25. 23 13)–

RM: The problem is thinking of p as a function of q.i. You have to remember that q.i is not an environmental variable; it is a function of environmental variables,

MT: The question that underlies this often-repeated statement is whether a particular function of environmental variables corresponds to a structure that exists in Real Reality (RR).

RM: No, I think this is not really relevant to my point I am making about the relationship between q.i and p. I’ll try another approach.

RM: I think the difference between p and q.i becomes obvious when you actually do research on PCT. The “coin game” described in B:CP is one example of PCT research that illustrates the relationship between q.i and p rather nicely. E’s hypotheses about the aspect of the coins that S is controlling are E’s own perceptions of different aspect of the coins – different q.i’s. For example, one hypothesis about the aspect of the coins being controlled is the pattern of the coins (straight line, Z pattern, etc); another is the relative size of the coins; another is the relative value of the dates on the coin. All these hypotheses about q.i are E’s perceptions that might correspond to the perception, p, that S is controlling. The goal of the test is for E to find his own perception of an aspect of the coins, his own q.i, that corresponds to the aspect of the coins, p, that S is controlling. This happens when E finds that S corrects for all disturbances to q.i, the current hypothesis about the controlled variable.

RM: E’s perception of q.i need not be a “direct” perception of the hypothetical controlled variable, as it is in the coin game, where E uses his own perceptual system to see whether S is controlling the pattern, relative size, relative value of the dates, or something else about the coins. Indeed, in formal PCT research the hypothesis, q.i, about the perception, p, S is controlling is typically computed by a computer rather than E’s own perceptual systems. An example of this kind of research is our paper on intercepting toy helicopters:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eymkj4bxuorpyuy/Chasin%27Choppers.pdf?dl=0

RM: This paper was meant to be an example of how to study behavior from a PCT perspective. The behavior under study was object interception – running to intercept a relatively randomly moving toy helicopter. Several different hypotheses about the perceptions that S is controlling in this situation were tested. These hypotheses are E’s perception, q.i, of the perception being controlled by S, p, just as in the coin game. But these hypotheses about p – these q.i – were defined by mathematical functions and computed by a computer. The test was done by putting different computed values of q.i into a model (as the perceptual variable, p) of S’s behavior to see which resulted in the closest fit to S’s behavior.

RM: There is another example of doing the test by having the computer compute the hypothetical controlled variable in Marken, R. S. (2014) Testing for Controlled Variables: A Model-Based Approach to Determining the Perceptual Basis of Behavior, Attention, Perception and Psychophysics, 76, 255-263, which is reprinted as Chapter 4 in “Doing Research on Purpose” (https://www.amazon.com/Doing-Research-Purpose-Experimental-Psychology/dp/0944337554/). In that paper two different hypotheses about the perception controlled in a tracking task are tested. The two different hypotheses are two different mathematical functions that define for E the perceptions – q.i – that might correspond to the perception - p – that is controlled by S. Again, these hypotheses are tested using modeling.

RM: Another way to get a sense of the relationship between q.i and p is by doing the hierarchical control demo at http://www.mindreadings.com/ControlDemo/Hierarchy.html. In this case, you are S and the computer is E. The computer has three hypotheses – three different q.i – about the perception, p, you are controlling: one q.i is shape, another is direction of movement and the third is the sequence of shapes. The computer tests the hypothesis about the perception you are controlling by seeing which perception is best protected from disturbance, which is measured as the proportion of a trial that each hypothetical controlled perception – each q.i – is kept in a reference state.

RM: I hope you can see that when you actually get down to rolling up your sleeves and doing PCT research the relationship between q.i and p becomes quite apparent: q.i is a perception in the researcher (or the researcher’s surrogate, such as a computer), which, when there is sufficient evidence from the test, is presumed to correspond to the perception, p, that S is controlling.

Best

Rick

That is something we can never know for sure, but what we can know is that if we have a perceptual function that does not correspond reasonably closely to some true property of RR, controlling it isn’t going to do much to help our intrinsic variables maintain us in good condition, so reorganization will tend to remove it more quickly than it would remove perceptual functions that do correspond to real structures in RR. Controlling those variables has a better chance of producing side-effects that are valuable for keeping intrinsic variables in good condition. The same goes in spades for perceptual functions that might have been developed by evolution because they are likely to correspond to structures that have persisted in RR over evolutionary time.

The takeaway is that transient perceptual functions (and arbitrary ones programmed into robots) have no necessary relationship with structures in RR, but persistent perceptual functions probably do. Going back to what I think lies behind Rick’s statement, all perceptual functions produce perceptions by manipulating a bunch of variables. Some of them have outputs that change in the same way that a property of the environment does when a particular input variable is changed. For these, q.i is likely to be a value of a variable in the environment, not simply a mirror of the perceptual function output “p”. For the ones that don’t, there is no structure in the environment that is constrained to vary as the perceptual function output does when one of the input variables changes. For these, q.i is a synthetic variable imposed on the environment by the perceptual function, not a variable constrained by a structure in the environment.

To make this concrete, suppose that in RR there is something that produces the visual appearance we call a simple table, with four legs and a top. Maybe there is a table there, but maybe the visual appearance is a contrived illusion. You try placing the perceived table top in a desired location. If the visual appearance of “table” is the result of there being a real table “out there”, then when you move the table top, all the legs will move as well, and they will move in ways that cause the 3-D perceptual appearance of “table” to be invariant. If the table is rotated, then the legs will move to keep each one under the same bit of the table top, and so forth. On the other hand, if it was an illusion, you might move the table top and find that one or more of the legs does not come along. That (non-)table was a construction created by your perceptual function. The one that kept its 3-D shape might also have been, but it is much more likely that the table was real than is the case of the one that did not keep its shape.

The important concept here is that there are two feedback processes involved. One is the immediate control of perception now, the other is a slow reorganization loop that changes perceptual functions according to what is really out there, bringing perceptual functions more into alignment with Real Reality. In this loop Boss Reality acts on the internal structure of the organism, tuning the perceptual functions that produce the perceptions that are controlled by influencing Real Reality. It was in this sense that Powers called the influence of Real Reality on organisms “Boss Reality”. Boss Reality determines what actually happens, and perceptual control develops over the eons and over individual lives toward a state in which perceptual reality approaches, but never exactly matches, some part of Real Reality.

Martin

Richard S. Marken

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.”
–Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Richard S. Marken

"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.”
–Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[Martin Taylor 2018.05.20.09.48]

Assuming you are being consistent in taking q.i to refer to

something in the environment that can, in principle, be perceived by
an outside observer, I suggest that Fake News offers a few real-life
demonstrations of the fact. Take for example the story (which might
itself be fake news) that a man perceived that a child care centre
was the centre of a ring of paedophiles run by Hillary Clinton, and
this created error in some perception he controlled, so he acted to
correct the error by going there with the intention of shooting up
the place (or something like that).

I cases of this type, what q.i would be observable in the

environment by an outside observer that is directly equivalent to
that man’s perception of the child care centre, or to its reference
value that a child care centre should be a place where children are
safe and well cared for?

The generic case that I intend this to illustrate is where p is an

illusory perception that mimics something that might have been in
the real environment, but is not, and differs from the person’s
reference value for the non-existent real-environment property. In
such cases, what is q.i, and how does the external experimenter
perceive it and test whether it is controlled?

I realize this isn't exactly the sort of demonstration you had in

mind, but I think your answer might help in designing or describing
such a demonstration.

Martin
···

[Rick Marken 2018-05-24_11:03:47]

        If someone can show me how to

demonstrate, via observation, that q.i is sometimes is not
equivalent to p then I will understand what that means and
accept it as a fact.