[From Rick Marken (2000.09.15.1240)]
Bruce Gregory (2000.0915.1455)--
try tbourbon@centex.net and see what happens.
Thanks. Done.
Best
Rick
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com
www.mindreadings.com
from Tom Bourbon:
"Richard S. Marken" wrote:
Hi Tom --
I wrote your address incorrectly when I first copied you
on the post to CSGNet. So here is the copy I meant to send.
It would sure make things easier if you would subscribe to
CSGNet.
I do not want to subscribe to CSGNet. My few remarks during the
past couple of days are in reply to copies of material from
CSGNet that were sent to me directly. My intent is to place a few
simple remarks into the archives, and not to enter into lengthy
and pointless discussions on CSGNet.
-----------------------------------------------------------
[From Rick Marken (2000.09.15.1000)]
Tom Bourbon (here and now) --
. . .
> Remember, everybody: First the phenomenon, then the model.
> That was supposed to be The PCT Way.That is, indeed, the PCT way. The phenomenon is control.
Dear friend. Read my words again. They are about the idea that
people who write authoritatively about a phenomenon first ought
to observe that phenomenon.
Bill says that he has observed no schools. Please list for us the
schools *you* have observed during the past five years. I
recommend at least a dozen schools or more, where people use a
variety of "discipline programs." I also recommend at least half
a day in each school you observe. An entire day is even better.
We
know the RTP teacher controls because she will act to return
"responsible behavior" to a class when there is a disruption.
Disruptions are caused by students acting "irresponsibly".
Therefore, controlling for "responsible behavior" in class
necessarily involves the control of student behavior. This is
a fact that is evident from descriptions of what the teacher
_should_ do and of what teachers _do_ do. There is no theory
involved in this analysis. The teacher's controlling is easily
observed as disturbance resistance.
So, what is new? You repeatedly return to this point, as though
you assume that Ed Ford never thought of it, or as though no one
associated with Ed ever wrote about it, or talked about it. If
those are your assumptions, they are wrong.
A visit to a school could
only tell us more about this phenomenon if we were allowed
to interject our own disturbances during a class visit; this
would allow us to get a better idea of exactly what variable
a particular teacher is controlling but it would also (I hope)
violate the school rules.
I think your assumption about that being the only thing a visit
to a school could tell you is wrong. I do not think you will
never visit a large number of schools, therefore the issue must
remain as it is, with you asserting from assumption, rather than
from observation. I have nothing further to say in reply to such
assertions.
I have nothing against controlling for classroom discipline,
especially when it's done in the gentle and respectful way
it is apparently done in RTP schools. I do have something
against saying that controlling is not happening when it is.
Anyway, I _like_ control. What I don't like is _conflict_.
Why not just admit that RTP teachers control and explain
that what's great about RTP is that it shows, via PCT,
how teachers can do this controlling without creating
horrendous conflicts?
Please see my comments to your previous paragraphs. And please
see what really happens in a dozen or so schools. Then come back
with some informed comments.
That's all folks.
Tom
[From Rick Marken (2000.09.15.1510)]
Tom Bourbon (here and now) --
Remember, everybody: First the phenomenon, then the
model. That was supposed to be The PCT Way.
Me:
That is, indeed, the PCT way. The phenomenon is control.
Tom Bourbon:
Dear friend. Read my words again. They are about the
idea that people who write authoritatively about a
phenomenon first ought to observe that phenomenon.
I think I have observed (and modeled) control enough
to be able to write authoritatively about it.
Please list for us the schools *you* have observed during
the past five years.
The only one I've observed in the last five years is 20th
Street School, an inner city LA grade school where my wife
reads to 2nd graders as part of the LA Times volunteer
reading program. Linda has never felt the need to give the
kids a "choice", though she had to offer one restless kid
a little extra make believe "bottom glue" during one story.
Yes, Linda was controlling the kids (for sitting quietly
and listening) and she did it so skillfully and respectfully
that everyone of those kids was an absolute doll while she
was reading. She did this all year and the cards she got
from the kids at the end of the year, written by the kids
themselves, all of whom knew English only as a second language,
would bring a tear to your eye (they brought a few to mine).
Those kids adored my controlling little shiksa.
I have been to more schools over the past 20 (when my kids
were in grade school; they never needed bottom glue) and
even more over the last 50. And even if I had never observed
a school in my life, I think I would still be qualified to
comment on whether or not it seemed like a person is
controlling based on a reasonably accurate description of
the person's behavior. I agree that one can't be absolutely
sure control is occurring without testing. But you have been
to these schools. Do you have any evidence that the teacher
is _not_ controlling (evidence such as the teacher doing
nothing at all when a kid continues to "violate the rights"
of another)? It didn't look to me like _not controlling_
would have been such a great option, for Linda or the teacher,
at 20th Street School.
Me:
We know the RTP teacher controls because she will act to return
"responsible behavior" to a class when there is a disruption...
Tom:
So, what is new? You repeatedly return to this point, as though
you assume that Ed Ford never thought of it, or as though no one
associated with Ed ever wrote about it, or talked about it. If
those are your assumptions, they are wrong.
Great! I read this as an acknowledgment that the RTP teacher
does control student behavior, acting to bring it to the reference
"responsible". I don't recall reading any discussion, let alone
acknowledgment, of this in the RTP literature. If you do somehow
get this reply, could you please point me to the places where
this is discussed. I think it would clear up a lot of the
misunderstanding between us.
Me:
A visit to a school could only tell us more about this phenomenon...
Tom:
I think your assumption about that being the only thing a visit
to a school could tell you is wrong.
It's the only thing the visit could tell _about this phenomenon_:
the controlling done by the teacher. A visit would let me find
out a bit more about the variables controlled by the teacher
and how she controls those variables. That would certainly be
interesting but not really crucial for the point I'm trying to
make, which is simply that the RTP teacher is required to (and
does) control the behavior of the students. You've now acknowledged
that this is the case so the only interesting thing to explain
is how the teachers do this without creating violent conflict.
Given your excellent understanding of control theory I trust that
you will be able to explain this very clearly to would-be RTP
teachers.
I do not think you will never visit a large number of schools,
therefore the issue must remain as it is, with you asserting
from assumption, rather than from observation.
You've already acknowledged that my "assumption" is correct (that
the teachers control for something like "responsible behavior").
So I don't really need to go to more schools; you've confirmed my
analysis. But I'd be happy to visit a school to watch the
RTP control process in action. I always like to watch control.
Me:
I have nothing against controlling for classroom discipline,
... Why not just admit that RTP teachers control and explain
that what's great about RTP is that it shows, via PCT, how
teachers can do this controlling without creating horrendous
conflicts?
Tom:
Please see my comments to your previous paragraphs.
I did, thanks.
And please see what really happens in a dozen or so schools.
What is this "really" stuff? Based on descriptions of what RTP
teachers must (and do) do, it is clear that the teachers are
controlling the behavior of the students. This is at least one
thing that "really" happens -- or should happen. One "really"
is enough for now. It's a pretty important "really".
Best
Rick
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com
www.mindreadings.com
[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0915.2100)]
Rick Marken (2000.09.15.1510)
.
What is this "really" stuff? Based on descriptions of what RTP
teachers must (and do) do, it is clear that the teachers are
controlling the behavior of the students. This is at least one
thing that "really" happens -- or should happen. One "really"
is enough for now. It's a pretty important "really".
Rick, you are right. You have always been right, and you always will be
right. Even though I don't understand control, I understand that. I'll try
to explain it Tom, but I suspect he understands it already. (By the way
repeating the same thing over and over and over again doesn't make you any
more right. Is it your experience that this approach has ever worked? It
sure doesn't work for me. But then again, I'm not always right.)
BG
Rick,
I sent this to CSGNet but thought I should copy you.
Feel free to ignore it.
So long, Rick.
Tom
[From Bill Powers(2000.09.16.0254 MDT)]
Rick Marken (2000.09.15.0920)--
T. B.:
The moral, for me? Before one speaks about an assumed social
phenomenon, one ought to go and see if the phenomenon even
exists.Bill Powers (2000.09.15.0647 MDT)--
You're right.
R. M.
Really? I have not observed every phenomenon that I believe
exists. There are a lot of phenomena out there; unless something
conflicts big time with my assumptions, I am willing to believe
that the phenomenon (moons of Pluto, continued eruption of Old
Faithful, etc) exists based on reports in the literature?
That's fine if you want to speak as a spectator. But when your opinions are
challenged, especially when it is mentioned that something may be going on
that you don't know about, don't you have a teeny urge to go look for
yourself? When Tom tells me that I don't know what actually happens in an
RTP school, I immediately recognize the validity of the statement. To do
otherwise, to prefer the theory to observation, would be to turn PCT into a
belief system, to make it a matter of faith.
What you say is perfectly true, in terms of PCT: all teachers control, for
the simple reason that all behavior is part of a control process. I don't
think Tom is denying that (though if he has found an example of organized
behavior that is _not_ a control process, don't you think we ought to
investigate it?). What he's saying is that you don't know, and I don't
know, _what_ the teachers are controlling in a successful RTP school. Are
they controlling for an orderly classroom? Perhaps, at some level. But is
that the highest level of variable they are considering? Could it be that
they are learning to teach students how to control social variables for
themselves? Could it be that they are trying to create an atmosphere of
trust and liking, or even love, within which it is only natural for people
of all ages to get along with each other and understand and respect each
other's preferences? That atmosphere is singularly lacking in many
exchanges on CSGnet, and anyone can see the result. Maybe we could learn
something from observing an RTP school that we failed to learn when we were
in elementary school ourselves.
I plan to find out, whether you do or not.
Best,
Bill P.
in the one school where I did manage to visit (Lukachukai),
the program wasn't working out for political reasons that
had nothing to do with RTP.The phenomenon I have been discussing is control, not whether
the program is "working out" in some sense. I have no doubt that
the program is "working out". But one doesn't have to go to a
school to know that a teacher who gives (or is asked to give
under certain circumstances) the behave-or leave choice is
controlling the behavior of the students?In partial defense, I have seen both parents and teachers
using the "choice" approach in just the phoney way I complain
about, although of course there was no RTP program in the
background.I believe that this "choice" is still phoney, even when RTP
is in the background.I admit that it's hard for me to imagine any system so perfect
that it's beyond criticismI am far less critical of the system than of the apparent lack
of willingness of those using it to apply PCT to understanding
the system itself. As you say:I don't feel that with respect to RTP all the cards are on
the table yet... And of course, the biggie: under what
circumstances, and to what degree, is the behavior of children
in the RTP program controlled?Best
Rick
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
MindReadings.com mailto: marken@mindreadings.com
www.mindreadings.com
[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0916.0644)]
Bill Powers(2000.09.16.0254 MDT)
Maybe we could learn
something from observing an RTP school that we failed to learn when we
were
in elementary school ourselves.
I plan to find out, whether you do or not.
I'm speechless.
BG
From Tom Bourbon (2000.09.16.10:07 CDT)
[From Bill Powers(2000.09.16.0254 MDT)]
Rick Marken (2000.09.15.0920)--
T. B.:
>>The moral, for me? Before one speaks about an assumed social
>>phenomenon, one ought to go and see if the phenomenon even
>>exists.
>
>Bill Powers (2000.09.15.0647 MDT)--
>
>> You're right.
>
R. M.>Really? I have not observed every phenomenon that I believe
>exists. There are a lot of phenomena out there; unless something
>conflicts big time with my assumptions, I am willing to believe
>that the phenomenon (moons of Pluto, continued eruption of Old
>Faithful, etc) exists based on reports in the literature?That's fine if you want to speak as a spectator. But when your opinions are
challenged, especially when it is mentioned that something may be going on
that you don't know about, don't you have a teeny urge to go look for
yourself? When Tom tells me that I don't know what actually happens in an
RTP school, I immediately recognize the validity of the statement. To do
otherwise, to prefer the theory to observation, would be to turn PCT into a
belief system, to make it a matter of faith.
Thanks, Bill. For the past few years, I have wished someone would
say something like that on CSGNet. It has been painful for me to
watch my colleagues assert that they already know all that
happens in the complex social settings that exist in schools. I
have been visiting schools for five years and I am not at all
certain why all of the things happen that I see and hear. I
probably understand some of the differences I see between
schools, but I do not pretend to understand them all. (I readily
acknowledge my lack of omniscience, a fault that leaves me at a
disadvantage against a person who claims such a quality.)
If anyone else decides to visit schools, please, don't stop with
"RTP schools." I have repeatedly urged interested parties to
visit *many* schools, where people use a *variety* of "discipline
programs, including the most common one: no program at all, every
teacher and kid for herself or himself.
What you say is perfectly true, in terms of PCT: all teachers control, for
the simple reason that all behavior is part of a control process. I don't
think Tom is denying that (though if he has found an example of organized
behavior that is _not_ a control process, don't you think we ought to
investigate it?).
Don't worry. I have encountered no organized behavior absent
control. For me, the issue is that none of us, not even those who
think of themselves as gurus of PCT, should assume that a
person's observed *actions* are "what the person is doing." For
one thing, there is the possibility that the person controls
hierarchical perceptions. Even when we think we have identified a
variable the person controls at a low perceptual level (noise
level in a classroom, for example), we need to consider the
possibility that it is controlled as part of the means by which
the person controls for perceptions at higher levels (for
example, seeing children "getting along on their own" [please
don't pounce on that phrase -- loosen up, back off, and think
about it] entirely independently of the "controller of noise
levels").
What he's saying is that you don't know, and I don't
know, _what_ the teachers are controlling in a successful RTP school. Are
they controlling for an orderly classroom? Perhaps, at some level. But is
that the highest level of variable they are considering? Could it be that
they are learning to teach students how to control social variables for
themselves? Could it be that they are trying to create an atmosphere of
trust and liking, or even love, within which it is only natural for people
of all ages to get along with each other and understand and respect each
other's preferences?
Spot on, Bill! Schools where educators control for perceptions
like those are worlds apart from schools where educators control
for perceptions of students' actions. A person who visits a
variety of schools will -- no doubt abut it -- perceive many of
the differences, immediately. That is all I have been urging, for
five years: go and visit a variety of schools, perceive the
differences, *then* let's work on understanding those
differences.
Of course everyone, in every school, controls perceptions all of
the time. Of course there is some inescapable element of
"coercion" [no long arguments on the definition of that word,
please!] in every school, all of the time. So why are there such
dramatic differences in the "climates" of different schools?
That atmosphere is singularly lacking in many
exchanges on CSGnet, and anyone can see the result. Maybe we could learn
something from observing an RTP school that we failed to learn when we were
in elementary school ourselves.
Well put, on all counts.
In many ways, schools today are not like schools when I was a
child, or when our children went through K-12. When my visits
began five years ago, I was not prepared for many of the things
that I saw and heard -- that I still see and hear.
Maybe I am wrong on this. Maybe everyone else who decides to
visit schools will ask, "What was he talking about? Everything
happening here is exactly like I knew it would be." If that
happens, so be it. I *always* entertain the strong possibility
that my understanding of things is flawed. That is why I need
someone else to check and tell me what they find. What I do not
need is pronouncements about what is happening, from people who
have never looked through the telescope.
I plan to find out, whether you do or not.
Bill, that is the best news I have seen in years!
Regards,
Tom
[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0916.1400)]
Tom Bourbon (2000.09.16.10:07 CDT)
> I plan to find out, whether you do or not.
Bill, that is the best news I have seen in years!
I've already told Bill that I heartily agree. Thanks, Tom.
Bruce
[From Bill Powers (2000.09.16.1156 MDT)]
Tom Bourbon (2000.09.16.10:07 CDT)
Thanks, Bill. For the past few years, I have wished someone would
say something like that on CSGNet.
Should have done it sooner.
If anyone else decides to visit schools, please, don't stop with
"RTP schools." I have repeatedly urged interested parties to
visit *many* schools, where people use a *variety* of "discipline
programs, including the most common one: no program at all, every
teacher and kid for herself or himself.
Good advice for the person who plans to work with schools. Not so great for
overextended me. I really do want to visit a few working RTP schools, but
would begrudge the time spent watching other systems in action. I'll wait
for your book which I hope, despite all the other projects, is still in the
works.
Got any recommendations -- for example, did Lukachikai ever get off the
ground?
Best,
Bill P.
What you say is perfectly true, in terms of PCT: all teachers control, for
the simple reason that all behavior is part of a control process. I don't
think Tom is denying that (though if he has found an example of organized
behavior that is _not_ a control process, don't you think we ought to
investigate it?).Don't worry. I have encountered no organized behavior absent
control. For me, the issue is that none of us, not even those who
think of themselves as gurus of PCT, should assume that a
person's observed *actions* are "what the person is doing." For
one thing, there is the possibility that the person controls
hierarchical perceptions. Even when we think we have identified a
variable the person controls at a low perceptual level (noise
level in a classroom, for example), we need to consider the
possibility that it is controlled as part of the means by which
the person controls for perceptions at higher levels (for
example, seeing children "getting along on their own" [please
don't pounce on that phrase -- loosen up, back off, and think
about it] entirely independently of the "controller of noise
levels").What he's saying is that you don't know, and I don't
know, _what_ the teachers are controlling in a successful RTP school. Are
they controlling for an orderly classroom? Perhaps, at some level. But is
that the highest level of variable they are considering? Could it be that
they are learning to teach students how to control social variables for
themselves? Could it be that they are trying to create an atmosphere of
trust and liking, or even love, within which it is only natural for people
of all ages to get along with each other and understand and respect each
other's preferences?Spot on, Bill! Schools where educators control for perceptions
like those are worlds apart from schools where educators control
for perceptions of students' actions. A person who visits a
variety of schools will -- no doubt abut it -- perceive many of
the differences, immediately. That is all I have been urging, for
five years: go and visit a variety of schools, perceive the
differences, *then* let's work on understanding those
differences.Of course everyone, in every school, controls perceptions all of
the time. Of course there is some inescapable element of
"coercion" [no long arguments on the definition of that word,
please!] in every school, all of the time. So why are there such
dramatic differences in the "climates" of different schools?That atmosphere is singularly lacking in many
exchanges on CSGnet, and anyone can see the result. Maybe we could learn
something from observing an RTP school that we failed to learn when we were
in elementary school ourselves.Well put, on all counts.
In many ways, schools today are not like schools when I was a
child, or when our children went through K-12. When my visits
began five years ago, I was not prepared for many of the things
that I saw and heard -- that I still see and hear.Maybe I am wrong on this. Maybe everyone else who decides to
visit schools will ask, "What was he talking about? Everything
happening here is exactly like I knew it would be." If that
happens, so be it. I *always* entertain the strong possibility
that my understanding of things is flawed. That is why I need
someone else to check and tell me what they find. What I do not
need is pronouncements about what is happening, from people who
have never looked through the telescope.I plan to find out, whether you do or not.
Bill, that is the best news I have seen in years!
Regards,
Tom
from Phil Runkel on 2000.09.16 at 12:15 PDT:
Tom Bourbon wrote on 2000.09.16. at 10:07 CDT
in answer to Bill Powers's of 2000.09.16.1254 MDT
--a friendly exchange I found heartening and desperately welcome. Thanks
to you both.
-- Phil R.
[From Rick Marken (2000.09.16.1150)]
Bill Powers(2000.09.16.0254 MDT)--
But when your opinions are challenged, especially when it is
mentioned that something may be going on that you don't know
about, don't you have a teeny urge to go look for yourself?
Sometimes. Especially when people won't say _what_ it is
that is "going on" that I don't know about. That's why I
wrote up all those control demos. You explained _what_ was
going on, with great precision, and I wanted to see for
myself. If the RTP people would say what I would see by
going to visit an RTP school, I would be much more interested
in going (not that they would be any more interested in
having me;-)
When Tom tells me that I don't know what actually happens
in an RTP school, I immediately recognize the validity of
the statement.
And I immediately recognize the vagueness of it. What is the
"what" that "actually happens" that I'm supposed to "see". All
I've been discussing is the fact that teachers who remove
disruptive kids from class are obviously controlling the kids'
behavior in order to control for the level of disruption in class.
If the teachers in RTP aren't controlling kids behavior, why
doesn't Tom just say this and explain _what_ I will see that
will prove that the teachers are, indeed, not controlling the
kids' behavior.
What you say is perfectly true, in terms of PCT: all teachers
control, for the simple reason that all behavior is part of a
control process. I don't think Tom is denying that
But Tom is not admitting it either. Either all the RTP cards are
still not on the table or someone's not playing with a full deck.
What he's saying is that you don't know, and I don't know,
_what_ the teachers are controlling in a successful RTP school.
Tom is not saying this. You are saying this. All Tom is saying
is that we're not allowed to talk about RTP unless we've been
to a school and seen what "really happens there".
Are they controlling for an orderly classroom? Perhaps, at some
level. But is that the highest level of variable they are
considering? Could it be that they are learning to teach
students how to control social variables for themselves? Could
it be that they are trying to create an atmosphere of trust and
liking, or even love, within which it is only natural for people
of all ages to get along with each other and understand and
respect each other's preferences?
This sounds great. This is a description of _what_ we might see
if we visited an RTP school. I certainly would have had no
complaints if RTP people had suggested going to RTP schools to
see this.
I plan to find out, whether you do or not.
That's great. I hope you can come back and tell us more about
what is going on in an RTP school than "You have to go see
for yourself what's really going on".
Best
Rick
---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com
[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0916.1605)]
Rick Marken (2000.09.16.1230)]
I guess this shows how much we are all locked in our own
perceptual worlds. From my experience on CSGNet I would say
that the people who have the most to learn about creating
"an atmosphere of trust and liking within which it is only
natural for people to get along" are the RTP people and their
sympathizers.
Rick it's impossible to parody you. Every time I think you couldn't say
anything more absurd, you outdo yourself. I am impressed.
BG
[From Bruce Gregory (2000.0916.1605)]
Rick Marken (2000.09.16.1230)]
I guess this shows how much we are all locked in our own
perceptual worlds. From my experience on CSGNet I would say
that the people who have the most to learn about creating
"an atmosphere of trust and liking within which it is only
natural for people to get along" are the RTP people and their
sympathizers.
Rick it's impossible to parody you. Every time I think you couldn't say
anything more absurd, you outdo yourself. I am impressed.
BG
[From Bill Powers (2000.09.16.1431 MDT)]
Phil Runkel on 2000.09.16 at 12:15 PDT:
--a friendly exchange I found heartening and desperately welcome. Thanks
to you both.
Tom and I have always been friends and always will be, whatever we may
disagree about. The same goes for Rick and me. I wish the third link worked
the same way.
Best,
Bill P.
[From Bill Powers (2000.09.16.1435 MDT)]
I guess this shows how much we are all locked in our own
perceptual worlds. From my experience on CSGNet I would say
that the people who have the most to learn about creating
"an atmosphere of trust and liking within which it is only
natural for people to get along" are the RTP people and their
sympathizers.
Is that the kind of remark that encourages the sort of relationship you do
prefer?
Best,
Bill P.
[From Rick Marken (2000.09.16.1230)]
Tom Bourbon (2000.09.16.10:07 CDT)
It has been painful for me to watch my colleagues assert
that they already know all that happens in the complex social
settings that exist in schools.
I'm certainly not one of those colleagues. All I've "asserted"
is that a teacher who removes a disruptive kid from class is
controlling for not having the disruptive kids in class. You
certainly don't need to go to an RTP school to know that that's
what is described. What's the big deal?
For me, the issue is that none of us, not even those who
think of themselves as gurus of PCT, should assume that a
person's observed *actions* are "what the person is doing."
This guru of PCT certainly doesn't think this. Control for
a disruption-free classroom is indicated by the fact that
the disruption level in the classroom (the controlled variable)
is kept near the reference state (no disruptions), protected from
disturbance (disruptions). The actions the teacher takes to
produce this state may vary considerably, from doing nothing
at all (when there are no disruptions) to asking questions
(like "do you need some extra bottom glue") to implied threats
(behave-or-leave) to direct force. The teacher varies her actions,
as necessary, in order to produce intended results: she controls.
For one thing, there is the possibility that the person controls
hierarchical perceptions.
I'd say it's a darn good possibility. I've done some research
that supports the idea that there is a hierarchy of different
types of perceptual variables, with lower level type variables
controlled as the means of controlling higher level types. But
the fact that the teacher is controlling a hierarchy of perceptions
doesn't mean that she is _not_ controlling the lower-level location
of the students: the teacher controls the behavior of disruptive
students (controlling their location) as the means of controlling
for a disruption-free class as the means of controlling for
a civilized social environment and so on. Control of behavior
doesn't stop happening just because it is part of the means of
achieving higher level goals.
Bill:
What he's saying is that you don't know, and I don't know,
_what_ the teachers are controlling in a successful RTP school...
Tom:
Spot on, Bill!
Is it, then, impossible to describe these variables -- or what
these variables might be -- verbally? Is there no way to know
what teachers are controlling in a a successful RTP school except
by going to the school? If this is true, then why even write
books about RTP? RTP is apparently a mystery that must be
experienced; it can't be communicated. If this is the case,
then I am not interested. Sounds like a religion to me.
I can't believe that it is impossible for RTP people to say
whether or not the teachers are controlling student behavior
when the teachers are prepared to remove disruptive kids from
class.
Bill:
Could it be that they are trying to create an atmosphere of
trust and liking, or even love, within which it is only natural
for people of all ages to get along with each other and
understand and respect each other's preferences? That atmosphere
is singularly lacking in many exchanges on CSGnet, and anyone
can see the result. Maybe we could learn something from
observing an RTP school that we failed to learn when we were in
elementary school ourselves.
Tom:
Well put, on all counts.
I guess this shows how much we are all locked in our own
perceptual worlds. From my experience on CSGNet I would say
that the people who have the most to learn about creating
"an atmosphere of trust and liking within which it is only
natural for people to get along" are the RTP people and their
sympathizers.
Best
Rick
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com
[From Rick Marken (2000.09.16.1400)]
Phil Runkel (2000.09.16 at 12:15 PDT) --
--a friendly exchange I found heartening and desperately
welcome. Thanks to you both.
Bill Powers (2000.09.16.1431 MDT)--
Tom and I have always been friends and always will be,
whatever we may disagree about. The same goes for Rick
and me. I wish the third link worked the same way.
So do I...whatever we may disagree about.
Best
Rick
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com
[From Rick Marken (2000.09.16.1420)]
Me:
I guess this shows how much we are all locked in our own
perceptual worlds. From my experience on CSGNet I would say
that the people who have the most to learn about creating
"an atmosphere of trust and liking within which it is only
natural for people to get along" are the RTP people and their
sympathizers.
Bill Powers (2000.09.16.1435 MDT)
Is that the kind of remark that encourages the sort of
relationship you do prefer?
Oops. No!
I _sincerely_ apologize to all RTP people and their
sympathizers.
Best
Rick
--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: marken@mindreadings.com
mindreadings.com