# Counter-Control, Moderation and Grand Guignol (was Re: What is CSG for?)

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/counter-control-moderation-and-grand-guignol-was-re-what-is-csg-for/3192>\
**Category:** CSG2004\
**Created:** [March 23, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/counter-control-moderation-and-grand-guignol-was-re-what-is-csg-for/3192 "2004-03-23T17:00:54Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 3\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers)\
**Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/counter-control-moderation-and-grand-guignol-was-re-what-is-csg-for/3192/21 "2004-03-26T23:53:04Z")

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[From Bill Powers (2004.03.26.1650 MST)]

Bill Williams 26 March 2004 4:15 PM CST --

> Martin is, as everyone knows, much more of an irenist than-- well, I think  
> you could say most of the rest of us. And, for that reason it is good to  
> have Martin around.

I don't know how many of you others here have been sneaking off to look in  
a dictionary, but I confess that I thought Bill was making a muddled  
reference to irony until I did my own sneaking. Irenic is an adjective  
relating to peacemaking. Of course I never let on that I didn't know the  
word, so don't tell him.

Best,

Bill P.

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**Author:** ![Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Martin_Taylor2)\
**Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 1:16am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/counter-control-moderation-and-grand-guignol-was-re-what-is-csg-for/3192/22 "2004-03-27T01:16:38Z")

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[Martin Taylor 2004.03.26.1009]

> [Peter Small 2004.02.26]
> 
> Martin wrote:
> 
> > The \_design\_ of this output is supposed to counter  
> > whatever might be unfortunately influencing the thing to be  
> > stabilized. And Peter is quite right in saying that this won't work  
> > under the chaotic conditions that often prevail in the real world.
> > 
> > Anyway, if Peter is indeed thinking of "control theory" the way much  
> > of the world does, his criticisms are well taken. They just don't  
> > apply to "perceptual control theory".
> 
> I think you may be misunderstanding my meaning of chaos. I am not  
> applying chaos to the outside world. I'm applying chaos to the neural  
> units that create the internal representations of the outside world  
> that appear in the mind: the appraisals, the perceptions and the  
> reference. To my understanding, these manifest as attractors.

As you know from having read "Thoughts on the Edge of Chaos", so am  
I, usually. However, in order to deal with the simple case of the  
"classic" PCT hierarchy, in which the feedback loops go through the  
environment, in my mini-tutorial I had to include the environment in  
what I said.

> perhaps you could explain to me how references  
> are constructed and in which way the presence of an error is detected  
> and then sent to the cognitive area of the brain to prompt corrective  
> action? Explanations that include black boxes are not acceptable.

I think you have to be a bit clearer in your question before this  
makes any sense. What do you mean by "the presence of an error is  
detected". And what do you mean by "sent to the congitive area of the  
brain". And what do you mean by "to prompt corrective action?"

Since you are asking for an answer in the context of PCT, it would  
help if the referents had some connection with PCT. My difficulty in  
answering you is similar to the difficulty a modern chemist might  
have when asked the question: "could you explain to me the phlogiston  
flows when the lead is turned to gold by contact with the  
Philosopher's Stone. And please don't use references to atoms."

When it comes to control, I think you are using a mental model  
completely foreign to me, although we do seem to be closely aligned  
in the area of complexity.

Martin

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**Author:** ![Bill\_Williams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/73ab20/32.png) [@Bill\_Williams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Williams1)\
**Post date:** [March 27, 2004, 4:51am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/counter-control-moderation-and-grand-guignol-was-re-what-is-csg-for/3192/23 "2004-03-27T04:51:29Z")

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From[Bill Williams 26 March 2004 10:40 PM CST]

> From[Peter Small 26 March 2004]
> 
> \>From[Bill Williams 26 March 2004 2:20 PM CST]  
> \>Peter thinks he is being sly, by the way he poses his argument. But, I

have

> \>seen this trick before. What Peter is saying, is "Stop before you fuck  
> \>another pig." the not too subtle premise of the statement is that I

have

> \>already fucked a pig. Peter, when Rick gets back from his apparently  
> \>much needed vacation, why don't you see if Rick falls for this argument?
> 
> I know you have a compelling desire to win at competitive games,

You don't know half as much as you think you do. Where did you get the  
idea that I have a compelling desire to win at competitive games?

My performance on the CSGnet has nothing, or next to nothing, to do with  
who I am. You have, I suppose, heard of situational logic?

> Bill, but do you really feel the need to out-gross Nick on metaphors?

You think that was gross? What about your stupid argument?

And, I think you mean Rick? Again, it is a matter of situational logic. In  
my view  
all us, as a matter of policy, ought to out gross Rick, and out-gross Rick  
on absolutely everything.

> Actually, I was quite sympathetic with Nick after he explained how he  
> came to use that unfortunate phrase.

Then you really are a fool.

.\> I'm sure even Michelle will be inclined to forgive him?

You are sure are you? How sure? Are you a thousand US sure? We could  
go higher..

Bill Williams

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