Dewey's (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.11.1600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated. It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

Dewey, John (1896). The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology.pdf (717 KB)

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Bruce,

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363). Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

With Regards,

Rich

···

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.11.1600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated. It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

[From Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Well, I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact talking about circular causation. His use of “circuit� is consistent with a loop, with something that starts and ends at the same place. He also is thinking about control and about the relationship between ends and means. I don’t think he had anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely focused on a circular view of causation, with stimulus and response as relative terms and then only in the context of a circle or loop.

P.S. Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I have, however, read one of his books: “How We Think.� Good reading.

Fred Nickols

···

From: Richard Pfau richardhpfau@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Bruce,

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363). Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

With Regards,

Rich

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.11.1600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated. It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

[From Frank Lenk (2018.04.12.0800 CDT)]

My read is that Dewey is talking about more than a loop, it’s a loop with purpose, or more exactly a loop we train through learning so we can control it to achieve a purpose. At this point, it begins to look very much like PCT, at least to me.

Key quotes for me:

“…the real beginning is with the act of seeing; it is the looking, not the sensation of light.� (pp 358-359)

“But now take a child who, upon reaching for bright light…has sometimes had a delightful exercise, sometimes found somethhing good to eat, and sometimes burned himself….The question of whetther to reach or to abstain from reaching is the question of what sort of bright light do we have here? Is it the one which means playing with one’s hands, eating milk, or burning one’s fingers?..We must have an anticipatory sensation, an image, of the movements that may occur, together with their respective values, before attention will go to the seeing to break it up as a sensation of light, and of light of this particular kind.â€? (pp 367-368)

This suggests to me that there is a reason for looking, for exploring the environment and trying to master it on the part of the child. There are past perceptions that have become references. There is a period of training/reorganization required to achieve the desired outcomes. This training produces well-organized habits (Dewey’s term) that resemble perceptual control systems (my term/interpretation).Â

Dewey’s concept of habits is more fully treated in Human Nature and Conduct, but one of the key things to note is that for Dewey, habits are mostly good, not bad; they are learned to achieve desired ends, mostly during childhood. Also, that the essence of habits is by no means repetition—it is their resilience to achieving their desired endds despite being subjected to a wide variety of disturbances.  Finally, we are our habits, they are closer to us, than our conscious thoughts as shown by their resistance to willpower. Dewey didn’t like the term “habitâ€? but felt it was the best term he could come up with at the time. If he were alive at the turn of the 21st Century rather than the 20th, I think he might have found “Perceptual Control Systemâ€? more satisfactory.Â

Frank

···

From: Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us
Reply-To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Date: Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 5:50 AM
To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Well, I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact talking about circular causation. His use of “circuit� is consistent with a loop, with something that starts and ends at the same place. He also is thinking about control and about the relationship between ends and means. I don’t think he had anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely focused on a circular view of causation, with stimulus and response as relative terms and then only in the context of a circle or loop.

P.S. Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I have, however, read one of his books: “How We Think.� Good reading.

Fred Nickols

From: Richard Pfau richardhpfau@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Bruce,

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363). Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

With Regards,

Rich

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.11.1600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated. It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1125 EDT)]

Hi Richard,

Interesting: The Dewey quote you provided is exactly the one I had put into a paper I’m working on, before I began to entertain doubts about whether Dewey really had circular causation in mind, despite his noting that the reflex arc should be considered a circle.

Dewey specifically is attacking the reflex arc concept in psychology, which is a rather different animal than the physiological reflex arc that served as the prototype for the psychological version. At that time, psychology was defined as the study of the mind, and Dewey notes that stimulus, nerve conduction, and motor response are mapped onto the mental sphere as sensations, thoughts (ideas), and acts, and that these constituents were being treated as “a patchwork of disjointed parts, a mechanical conjunction of unallied processes.� Instead, Dewey contends, “what is wanted is that the sensory stimulus, central connections and motor responses shall be viewed, not as separate and complete entities in themselves, but as divisions of labor, functioning factors, within the single concrete whole, not designated the reflex arc.�

“What shall we term that which is not sensation-followed-by-idea-followed-by-movement, but which is primary; which is, as it were, the psychical organism of which sensation, idea and movement are the chief organs?� Referring to the “physiological side,� Dewey says that its essence is a “coordination.� To illustrate what he means by this term, he refers to William James’ example of a child who, curious about the nature of a candle flame, reaches out to touch it. The ordinary analysis would treat the visual sensation arising from the flame as a stimulus and the reaching as a response. But this is incomplete: “ . . . we begin not with a sensory stimulus, but with a sensori-motor coordination, the optical-ocular, and that in a certain sense it is the movement which is primary, and the sensation which is secondary, the movement of the body, head and eye muscles determining the quality of what is experienced. In other words, the real beginning is with the act of seeing; it is looking, and not a sensation of light.�

I take Dewey to mean here that to perceive the flame, the child must orient her body, head, and eyes toward the flame, an act of looking. Thus the stimulus side of the reflex arc consists not of mere stimulation of the optical receptors, but of orienting the receptors so that the stimulus can be received: “. . . both sensation and movement lie inside, not outside the act.�

Dewey continues: “Now if this act, the seeing, stimulates another act, the reaching, it is because both of these acts fall within a larger coordination . . … More specifically, the ability of the hand to do its work will depend, either directly or indirectly, upon its control, as well as its stimulation, by the act of vision. . . . The reaching, in turn, must both stimulate and control the seeing. The eye must be kept upon the candle if the arm is to do its work; let it wander and the arm takes up another task.â€?

Here Dewey has added another “coordinationâ€?: the act of reaching depends upon the act of vision. What was stimulus and response in the reflex arc has been replaced by seeing – actively turning the eyes so thhat the image of the flame falls upon the retina, and reaching – acttively moving the hand toward the flame, guided by the vision of the flame.

From our modern perspective it is obvious that Dewey’s “coordinations� are the relations between perception and action that are imposed by a control system. But as I interpreted what Dewey was saying, it seemed to me that he was decomposing the stimulus-idea-response view of the reflex arc into a sequence. In the flame example, the child actively explores its environment and the image of the flame chances to appear on the retina. Curious, the child fixates its eyes on the flame and, ignorant of its properties, initiates an exploration by reaching out in order to touch it. This is clearly not a reflex act in which some adequate stimulus triggers a reaction. Dewey is not analyzing a reflex as the actions produced by a control system when a sudden disturbance is applied to its controlled perception. Instead, he is arguing that such things as “seeing� have both sensory and motor components in which each is altered by the other. This is certainly different from the way the reflex arc concept was then being applied, which did not differ materially from Descartes’ view that animal behavior (and involuntary human behavior) comprises a series of reflex actions in which stimulation acts via the nerves to trigger a response, altering the stimulation playing upon the individual’s senses and thus producing yet more activity through further reflex action. For Dewey, seeing involves not only the active centering of the object of interest on the fovea, but the active processing of the information provided (ideas, thinking) in the light of prior experience and current conditions. (See Dewey’s discussion of how a noise may be interpreted differently depending on the context.)

Bruce

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)] –

Bruce,

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363). Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

With Regards,

Rich

···

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.11.1600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated. It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1125 EDT)]

Â

Hi Richard,

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      From our modern perspective it is obvious

that Dewey’s “coordinations� are the relations between
perception and action that are imposed by a control system.Â
But as I interpreted what Dewey was saying, it seemed to me
that he was decomposing the stimulus-idea-response view of the
reflex arc into a sequence.

···

[From:
Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)] –

Â

Bruce,

Â

          Thank you for

providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen
references to it before, but this is the first time I have
read it.

Â

          My reading of

the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s
closed-loop view of what is happening.Â

Â

          For example,

in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states
“What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment
of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic
than reflex, because the motor response determines the
stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines
movement” (p. 363).  Similarly, on the last page he writes
that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc,
instead of the circuit… The circle is a
coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that
which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed
fragments” (p. 370).

Â

With Regards,

Rich

Â

Â

Â

          On Wed, Apr

11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott <bbabbott@frontier.com >
wrote:

                [From

Bruce Abbott (2018.04.11.1600 EDT)]

Â

                In

1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published
what came to be an influential article, * The
Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology* . The reflex
arc  is the foundational concept of
stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior
is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli.Â
Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as
containing an early recognition that behavior
operates via a closed loop of circular causation and
not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a
one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus
through the nervous system to response. Yet on
rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt
this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

Â

                To

be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy
reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly
what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that
has led readers to read into that writing more than
is actually stated. It is also possible that I am
not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that
reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would
ask anyone who may be interested to read it and
provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and
we can then have a conversation about it. The paper
is short.

Â

Bruce

Â

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1145 EST)]

Thanks, Fred, I appreciate your input.

Bruce

···

From: Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 6:51 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Well, I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact talking about circular causation. His use of “circuit� is consistent with a loop, with something that starts and ends at the same place. He also is thinking about control and about the relationship between ends and means. I don’t think he had anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely focused on a circular view of causation, with stimulus and response as relative terms and then only in the context of a circle or loop.

P.S. Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I have, however, read one of his books: “How We Think.� Good reading.

Fred Nickols

From: Richard Pfau richardhpfau@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Bruce,

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363). Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

With Regards,

Rich

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.0411.1600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

Please see this (attached). I wrote this paper precisely because of Dewey’s insight.Â

2017_NecessitySufficiency.pdf (215 KB)

···

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1145 EST)]

Â

Thanks, Fred, I appreciate your input.

Â

Bruce

Â

From: Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 6:51 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

Â

[From Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Â

Well, I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact talking about circular causation. His use of “circuit� is consistent with a loop, with something that starts and ends at the same place. He also is thinking about control and about the relationship between ends and means. I don’t think he had anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely focused on a circular view of causation, with stimulus and response as relative terms and then only in the context of a circle or loop.

Â

P.S. Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I have, however, read one of his books: “How We Think.� Good reading.

Â

Fred Nickols

Â

From: Richard Pfau richardhpfau@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

Â

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Â

Bruce,

Â

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

Â

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.Â

Â

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363).  Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

Â

With Regards,

Rich

Â

Â

Â

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.0411.1600 EDT)]

Â

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc  is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

Â

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Â

Bruce

Â


Alex Gomez-Marin, PhD

Research Group Leader

Instituto de Neurociencias

behavior-of-organisms.org

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04,12,1325 EST)]

Thanks, Frank. I especially appreciate the additional information about Dewey’s concept of habits. (Comments below.)

[From Frank Lenk (2018.04.12.0800 CDT)]

My read is that Dewey is talking about more than a loop, it’s a loop with purpose, or more exactly a loop we train through learning so we can control it to achieve a purpose. At this point, it begins to look very much like PCT, at least to me.

Key quotes for me:

“…the real beginning is wwith the act of seeing; it is the looking, not the sensation of light.â€? (pp 358-359)

“But now take a child who, upon reaching for bright light…has sometimes had a delightful exercise, sometimes found somethingg good to eat, and sometimes burned himself….The question of whetherr to reach or to abstain from reaching is the question of what sort of bright light do we have here? Is it the one which means playing with one’s hands, eating milk, or burning one’s fingers?..We must have an anticipatory sensation, an image, of the movements that may occur, together with their respective values, before attention will go to the seeing to break it up as a sensation of light, and of light of this particular kind.â€? (pp 367-368)

This suggests to me that there is a reason for looking, for exploring the environment and trying to master it on the part of the child. There are past perceptions that have become references. There is a period of training/reorganization required to achieve the desired outcomes. This training produces well-organized habits (Dewey’s term) that resemble perceptual control systems (my term/interpretation).

Certainly Dewey is recognizing the importance of the interaction between the person and environment, and the purposeful nature of that interaction. What Dewey is calling a coordination in fact describes to some degree the relation between perception and action in a control system, but goes well beyond our usual formulation of perception by bringing in the effects of context, association, and understanding. The development of habits is of course an expected outcome of what we in PCT call reorganization. However, reorganization is usually conceived as operating on the “wiring� of the system and on its parameter values, perhaps because our usual PCT models of reorganization are limited to this form. Dewey brings to perception additional factors such as associations and our interpretation of what it is we are perceiving (e.g., a sudden noise as indicating danger). A future PCT will have to take account of these additional factors rather than seeing perception as simply the derivation of new perceptions by combining perceptions from lower levels in the hierarchy.

Dewey’s concept of habits is more fully treated in Human Nature and Conduct, but one of the key things to note is that for Dewey, habits are mostly good, not bad; they are learned to achieve desired ends, mostly during childhood. Also, that the essence of habits is by no means repetition—it is their reesilience to achieving their desired ends despite being subjected to a wide variety of disturbances. Finally, we are our habits, they are closer to us, than our conscious thoughts as shown by their resistance to willpower. Dewey didn’t like the term “habitâ€? but felt it was the best term he could come up with at the time. If he were alive at the turn of the 21st Century rather than the 20th, I think he might have found “Perceptual Control Systemâ€? more satisfactory.

Interesting; thanks for that!

I’ve recently read a couple sources asserting that in his reflex-arc concept paper, Dewey “leapfrogged� over both behaviorism and cognitive psychology to the current view in terms of system dynamics!

Bruce

Frank

···

From: Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us
Reply-To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Date: Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 5:50 AM
To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Well, I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact talking about circular causation. His use of “circuit� is consistent with a loop, with something that starts and ends at the same place. He also is thinking about control and about the relationship between ends and means. I don’t think he had anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely focused on a circular view of causation, with stimulus and response as relative terms and then only in the context of a circle or loop.

P.S. Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I have, however, read one of his books: “How We Think.� Good reading.

Fred Nickols

From: Richard Pfau richardhpfau@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Bruce,

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363). Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

With Regards,

Rich

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.111600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated. It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1440 EDT)]

Thanks, Alex, I’ll give it a read . . .

Bruce

···

From: Alex Gomez-Marin agomezmarin@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 12:37 PM
To: csgnet csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

Please see this (attached). I wrote this paper precisely because of Dewey’s insight.


Alex Gomez-Marin, PhD

Research Group Leader

Instituto de Neurociencias

behavior-of-organisms.org

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1145 EST)]

Thanks, Fred, I appreciate your input.

Bruce

From: Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 6:51 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Well, I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact talking about circular causation. His use of “circuitâ€? is consistent with a loop, with something that starts and ends at the same place. He also is thinking about control and about the relationship between ends and means. I don’t think he had anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely focused on a circular view of causation, with stimulus and response as relative terms and then only in the context of a circle or loop.

P.S. Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I have, however, read one of his books: “How We Think.â€? Good reading.

Fred Nickols

From: Richard Pfau richardhpfau@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Bruce,

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363). Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

With Regards,

Rich

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.0411.1600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

It is mainly insisting that neuroscience notion of causality is not circular, and that is problematic.

···

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 8:39 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1440 EDT)]

Â

Thanks, Alex, I’ll give it a read . . .

Â

Bruce

Â

From: Alex Gomez-Marin agomezmarin@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 12:37 PM
To: csgnet csgnet@lists.illinois.edu

Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

Â

Please see this (attached). I wrote this paper precisely because of Dewey’s insight.Â


Alex Gomez-Marin, PhD

Research Group Leader

Instituto de Neurociencias

behavior-of-organisms.org

Â

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1145 EST)]

Â

Thanks, Fred, I appreciate your input.

Â

Bruce

Â

From: Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 6:51 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

Â

[From Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Â

Well, I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact talking about circular causation. His use of “circuit� is consistent with a loop, with something that starts and ends at the same place. He also is thinking about control and about the relationship between ends and means. I don’t think he had anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely focused on a circular view of causation, with stimulus and response as relative terms and then only in the context of a circle or loop.

Â

P.S. Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I have, however, read one of his books: “How We Think.� Good reading.

Â

Fred Nickols

Â

From: Richard Pfau richardhpfau@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

Â

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Â

Bruce,

Â

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

Â

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.Â

Â

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363).  Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

Â

With Regards,

Rich

Â

Â

Â

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.0411.1600 EDT)]

Â

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc  is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

Â

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Â

Bruce

Â

Â


Alex Gomez-Marin, PhD

Research Group Leader

Instituto de Neurociencias

behavior-of-organisms.org

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04,12,1325 EST)]

Â


What Dewey is calling a coordination in
fact describes to some degree the relation between perception
and action in a control system, but goes well beyond our usual
formulation of perception by bringing in the effects of
context, association, and understanding.

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1555 EDT)]

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.12.11.34]

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1125 EDT)]

Hi Richard,

From our modern perspective it is obvious that Dewey’s “coordinations� are the relations between perception and action that are imposed by a control system. But as I interpreted what Dewey was saying, it seemed to me that he was decomposing the stimulus-idea-response view of the reflex arc into a sequence.

I would disagree, though it is hard to know exactly how Dewey was using language to communicate with the psychologists of the time. My impression is that he was arguing against the decomposition of “the stimulus-idea-response view of the reflex arc into a sequence.”

Yes, except, as I pointed out, both the “seeing� and the “reaching� are control-system acts, and one was described as following the other, as in “stimulus-response.� So we have two separate “coordinations� being described inside the so-called reflex arc. Perhaps my mistake is overlooking Dewey’s seeing the arc as yet another coordination rather than a sequence of constituent coordinations. For Dewey, the stimulus is conditioned by the “response� of fixating the receptors upon it (“looking�) and the response is conditioned by the “stimulus,� which guides the reaching. Each is a coordination within the larger coordination of the so-called reflex act of reacting to the stimulus. But to me this has the character of a sequence of behavioral acts that are carried out in order to achieve some goal: To explore the flame I must first turn my eyes on it, so that its image is projected upon my retinas; once I am looking at the flame I must place my hand in (or near) the flame; to place my hand in the flame I must reach my hand out to the flame, guided by the looking.

I think it important to understand that Dewey was writing specifically about the concept of the reflex arc as it had been imported into the study of mental processes, and not about physiological reflexes. The example he gives involves voluntary acts – looking at a flaame, reaching for it – as opposed to involuntary acts typically labeeled as reflexes, such as the changes in pupil diameter with changes in the intensity of light falling on the retina, the secretion of saliva when a substance such as lemon juice is placed on the tongue, or the knee-jerk in response to a blow to the patellar tendon. Dewey’s critique of the reflex arc in psychology applied to the application of this concept to the explanation of ordinary behavior as reactions to simple sensations, which ignored the complex interplay between environment, prior experience, and purposeful acts that orient the receptors and determine how the sensations will be interpreted and what actions will be appropriate with respect to them.

Writing in 1906, Charles Sherrington documented numerous studies of physiological reflexes, in which there appeared to be a specific stimulus (defined by the sensory receptors for which it proved to be the “adequate� stimulus) that elicited a specific response with a measurable time-delay and which typically outlasted the initiating stimulus. When Dewey wrote his paper, the psychologist’s concept of the reflex arc borrowed the apparent lineal causality of the reflex but applied it to behavior in general, viewing all behavior as reactions to prior stimuli. With the behaviorist revolution that came later the mental concepts were abandoned in favor of the objectively observable stimuli and responses, but the reflex concept of behavior remained.

Bruce

···

…the reflex arc idea leaves us with a disjointed psychology, whether viewed from the standpoint of development in the individual or in the race, or from that of the analysis of the mature consciousness. As to the former, in its failure to see that the arc of which it talks is virtually a circuit, a continual reconstitution, it breaks continuity and leaves us nothing but a series of jerks, the origin of each jerk to be sought outside the process of experience itself, in either an external pressure of • environment,’ or else in an unaccountable spontaneous variation from within the ’ soul’ or the ’ organism.’ As to the latter, failing to see the unity of activity, no matter how much it may prate of unity, it still leaves us with sensation or peripheral stimulus; idea, or central process (the equivalent of attention) ; and motor response, or act, as three disconnected existences, having to be somehow adjusted to each other, whether through the intervention of an extra- experimental soul, or by mechanical push and pull.


Martin

Bruce

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)] –

Bruce,

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363). Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

With Regards,

Rich

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.11.1600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated. It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

[From Bruce
Abbott (2018.04.12.1555 EDT)]

Â

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.12.11.34]

···
        [From Bruce

Abbott (2018.04.12.1125 EDT)]

Â

Hi Richard,

Â

Â

        From our modern

perspective it is obvious that Dewey’s “coordinations� are
the relations between perception and action that are imposed
by a control system. But as I interpreted what Dewey was
saying, it seemed to me that he was decomposing the
stimulus-idea-response view of the reflex arc into a
sequence.

      I would disagree, though it is hard to know exactly how Dewey

was using language to communicate with the psychologists of
the time. My impression is that he was arguing against
the decomposition of “the stimulus-idea-response view of the
reflex arc into a sequence.”

Â

        Yes, except,

as I pointed out, both the “seeing� and the “reaching� are
control-system acts, and one was described as following the
other, as in “stimulus-response.� So we have two separate
“coordinations� being described inside the so-called reflex
arc. Perhaps my mistake is overlooking Dewey’s seeing the
arc as yet another coordination rather than a sequence of
constituent coordinations.Â

[From Frank Lenk (2018.04.12.1800 CDT)]

This looks like the most relevant time to share my dissertation, completed a couple of years ago, where I attempt to show the compatibility of PCT with the Original Institutional Economics of Dewey and Veblen. The discussion of Dewey begins on page 40, for any who are interested.

If anyone gets beyond that, I also summarize PCT starting on page 50, with some comparisons to Dewey and Veblen. Beginning on page 77, I then draw on working papers from Martin and Kent to discuss how PCT could extend to social systems.  My attempt to integrate PCT with OIE then begins on page 88.

Comments welcome.

Frank

Lenk-Dissertation-Fall2015.pdf (3.12 MB)

···

From: Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com
Reply-To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Date: Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 12:29 PM
To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04,12,1325 EST)]

Thanks, Frank. I especially appreciate the additional information about Dewey’s concept of habits. (Comments below.)

[From Frank Lenk (2018.04.12.0800 CDT)]

My read is that Dewey is talking about more than a loop, it’s a loop with purpose, or more exactly a loop we train through learning so we can control it to achieve a purpose. At this point, it begins to look very much like PCT, at least to me.

Key quotes for me:

“…the real beginning iis with the act of seeing; it is the looking, not the sensation of light.â€? (pp 358-359)

“But now take a child who, upon reaching for bright light…has sometimes had a delightful exercise, sometimes found somethhing good to eat, and sometimes burned himself….The question of whetther to reach or to abstain from reaching is the question of what sort of bright light do we have here? Is it the one which means playing with one’s hands, eating milk, or burning one’s fingers?..We must have an anticipatory sensation, an image, of the movements that may occur, together with their respective values, before attention will go to the seeing to break it up as a sensation of light, and of light of this particular kind.â€? (pp 367-368)

This suggests to me that there is a reason for looking, for exploring the environment and trying to master it on the part of the child. There are past perceptions that have become references. There is a period of training/reorganization required to achieve the desired outcomes. This training produces well-organized habits (Dewey’s term) that resemble perceptual control systems (my term/interpretation).

Certainly Dewey is recognizing the importance of the interaction between the person and environment, and the purposeful nature of that interaction. What Dewey is calling a coordination in fact describes to some degree the relation between perception and action in a control system, but goes well beyond our usual formulation of perception by bringing in the effects of context, association, and understanding. The development of habits is of course an expected outcome of what we in PCT call reorganization. However, reorganization is usually conceived as operating on the “wiring� of the system and on its parameter values, perhaps because our usual PCT models of reorganization are limited to this form. Dewey brings to perception additional factors such as associations and our interpretation of what it is we are perceiving (e.g., a sudden noise as indicating danger). A future PCT will have to take account of these additional factors rather than seeing perception as simply the derivation of new perceptions by combining perceptions from lower levels in the hierarchy.

Dewey’s concept of habits is more fully treated in Human Nature and Conduct, but one of the key things to note is that for Dewey, habits are mostly good, not bad; they are learned to achieve desired ends, mostly during childhood. Also, that the essence of habits is by no means repetition—it is their reesilience to achieving their desired ends despite being subjected to a wide variety of disturbances. Finally, we are our habits, they are closer to us, than our conscious thoughts as shown by their resistance to willpower. Dewey didn’t like the term “habitâ€? but felt it was the best term he could come up with at the time. If he were alive at the turn of the 21st Century rather than the 20th, I think he might have found “Perceptual Control Systemâ€? more satisfactory.

Interesting; thanks for that!

I’ve recently read a couple sources asserting that in his reflex-arc concept paper, Dewey “leapfrogged� over both behaviorism and cognitive psychology to the current view in terms of system dynamics!

Bruce

Frank

From: Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us
Reply-To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Date: Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 5:50 AM
To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Well, I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact talking about circular causation. His use of “circuit� is consistent with a loop, with something that starts and ends at the same place. He also is thinking about control and about the relationship between ends and means. I don’t think he had anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely focused on a circular view of causation, with stimulus and response as relative terms and then only in the context of a circle or loop.

P.S. Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I have, however, read one of his books: “How We Think.� Good reading.

Fred Nickols

From: Richard Pfau richardhpfau@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Bruce,

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363). Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

With Regards,

Rich

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.111600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated. It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.13.1025 EDT)]

Thanks for this, Frank; I’ll give it a read when I have some free time to devote to it.

For those on CSGnet who might have been led to believe that your dissertation is about some esoteric topic on Dewey’s contribution to institutional economics, perhaps the title will entice you. The title is Institution: The Control of Social Perception – Toward a Theory of Minority-Directed IInstitutional Change.

Bruce

[From Frank Lenk (2018.04.12.1800 CDT)]

This looks like the most relevant time to share my dissertation, completed a couple of years ago, where I attempt to show the compatibility of PCT with the Original Institutional Economics of Dewey and Veblen. The discussion of Dewey begins on page 40, for any who are interested.

If anyone gets beyond that, I also summarize PCT starting on page 50, with some comparisons to Dewey and Veblen. Beginning on page 77, I then draw on working papers from Martin and Kent to discuss how PCT could extend to social systems. My attempt to integrate PCT with OIE then begins on page 88.

Comments welcome.

Frank

···

From: Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com
Reply-To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Date: Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 12:29 PM
To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04,12,1325 EST)]

Thanks, Frank. I especially appreciate the additional information about Dewey’s concept of habits. (Comments below.)

[From Frank Lenk (2018.04.12.0800 CDT)]

My read is that Dewey is talking about more than a loop, it’s a loop with purpose, or more exactly a loop we train through learning so we can control it to achieve a purpose. At this point, it begins to look very much like PCT, at least to me.

Key quotes for me:

“…the real beginning is with the act of sseeing; it is the looking, not the sensation of light.â€? (pp 358-359)

“But now take a child who, upon reaching for bright light…has sometimes had a delightful exercise, sometimes found something good to eat, and sometimes burned himself….The question of whether to reach or to abstain from reaching is the question of what sort of bright light do we have here? Is it the one which means playing with one’s hands, eating milk, or burning one’s fingers?..We must have an anticipatory sensation, an image, of the movements that may occur, together with their respective values, before attention will go to the seeing to break it up as a sensation of light, and of light of this particular kind.â€? (pp 367-368)

This suggests to me that there is a reason for looking, for exploring the environment and trying to master it on the part of the child. There are past perceptions that have become references. There is a period of training/reorganization required to achieve the desired outcomes. This training produces well-organized habits (Dewey’s term) that resemble perceptual control systems (my term/interpretation).

Certainly Dewey is recognizing the importance of the interaction between the person and environment, and the purposeful nature of that interaction. What Dewey is calling a coordination in fact describes to some degree the relation between perception and action in a control system, but goes well beyond our usual formulation of perception by bringing in the effects of context, association, and understanding. The development of habits is of course an expected outcome of what we in PCT call reorganization. However, reorganization is usually conceived as operating on the “wiring� of the system and on its parameter values, perhaps because our usual PCT models of reorganization are limited to this form. Dewey brings to perception additional factors such as associations and our interpretation of what it is we are perceiving (e.g., a sudden noise as indicating danger). A future PCT will have to take account of these additional factors rather than seeing perception as simply the derivation of new perceptions by combining perceptions from lower levels in the hierarchy.

Dewey’s concept of habits is more fully treated in Human Nature and Conduct, but one of the key things to note is that for Dewey, habits are mostly good, not bad; they are learned to achieve desired ends, mostly during childhood. Also, that the essence of habits is by no means repetition—it is their resilience to achieving their desireed ends despite being subjected to a wide variety of disturbances. Finally, we are our habits, they are closer to us, than our conscious thoughts as shown by their resistance to willpower. Dewey didn’t like the term “habitâ€? but felt it was the best term he could come up with at the time. If he were alive at the turn of the 21st Century rather than the 20th, I think he might have found “Perceptual Control Systemâ€? more satisfactory.

Interesting; thanks for that!

I’ve recently read a couple sources asserting that in his reflex-arc concept paper, Dewey “leapfrogged� over both behaviorism and cognitive psychology to the current view in terms of system dynamics!

Bruce

Frank

From: Fred Nickols fred@nickols.us
Reply-To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Date: Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 5:50 AM
To: “csgnet@lists.illinois.edu” csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Well, I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact talking about circular causation. His use of “circuit� is consistent with a loop, with something that starts and ends at the same place. He also is thinking about control and about the relationship between ends and means. I don’t think he had anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely focused on a circular view of causation, with stimulus and response as relative terms and then only in the context of a circle or loop.

P.S. Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I have, however, read one of his books: “How We Think.� Good reading.

Fred Nickols

From: Richard Pfau richardhpfau@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the reflex arc

[From: Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Bruce,

Thank you for providing Dewey’s article. Very interesting. I had seen references to it before, but this is the first time I have read it.

My reading of the article is that his thinking is compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what is happening.

For example, in his criticism of the reflex arc concept, he states “What we have is a circuit, not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This circuit is more truly termed organic than reflex, because the motor response determines the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus determines movement” (p. 363). Similarly, on the last page he writes that “The reflex arc theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of the circuit… The circle is a coordination… It is the coordination which unifies that which the reflex arc concept gives us only in disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

With Regards,

Rich

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com wrote:

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.111600 EDT)]

In 1896 the American philosopher John Dewey published what came to be an influential article, The Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology. The reflex arc is the foundational concept of stimulus-response psychology, in which all behavior is said to occur as responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of PCT sometimes point to this article as containing an early recognition that behavior operates via a closed loop of circular causation and not, as the reflex arc concept implies, via a one-way, open loop pathway leading from stimulus through the nervous system to response. Yet on rereading this seminal paper I find reason to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s analysis.

To be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for easy reading. It can be difficult to comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and perhaps it is this fact that has led readers to read into that writing more than is actually stated. It is also possible that I am not understanding Dewey correctly, and for that reason I’ve attached the article as a pdf and would ask anyone who may be interested to read it and provide their own analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then have a conversation about it. The paper is short.

Bruce

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.13.1210 EDT)]

Happy Friday the 13th!

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.12.17.34]

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1555 EDT)]

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.12.11.34]

[From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1125 EDT)]

Hi Richard,

From our modern perspective it is obvious that Dewey’s “coordinations� are the relations between perception and action that are imposed by a control system. But as I interpreted what Dewey was saying, it seemed to me that he was decomposing the stimulus-idea-response view of the reflex arc into a sequence.

I would disagree, though it is hard to know exactly how Dewey was using language to communicate with the psychologists of the time. My impression is that he was arguing against the decomposition of “the stimulus-idea-response view of the reflex arc into a sequence.”

Yes, except, as I pointed out, both the “seeing� and the “reaching� are control-system acts, and one was described as following the other, as in “stimulus-response.� So we have two separate “coordinations� being described inside the so-called reflex arc. Perhaps my mistake is overlooking Dewey’s seeing the arc as yet another coordination rather than a sequence of constituent coordinations.

I don’t know what was in Dewey’s mind when he wrote it, but I didn’t read it the way you did. For what it is worth, I read it as one loop supporting another, in the same way that “I want to hear the doorbell ringing may be said to be followed by (and is in consciousness followed by) so I must push the doorbell” in a two-loop hierarchy.

For Dewey, the stimulus is conditioned by the “response� of fixating the receptors upon it (“looking�) and the response is conditioned by the “stimulus,� which guides the reaching. Each is a coordination within the larger coordination of the so-called reflex act of reacting to the stimulus. But to me this has the character of a sequence of behavioral acts that are carried out in order to achieve some goal: To explore the flame I must first turn my eyes on it, so that its image is projected upon my retinas; once I am looking at the flame I must place my hand in (or near) the flame; to place my hand in the flame I must reach my hand out to the flame, guided by the looking.

I would read this as three levels of control: (Top Why-How) For some reason I want to explore the flame (Second Why-How) In order to explore the flame I want to feel the flame (Third Why-How) In order to feel the flame I want to see the flame (and my hand, presumably). They are a sequence, but to me they are a vertical sequence through the hierarchy. Once the “seeing” has reached its reference it is maintained there. While it is maintained there, the “feeling” can be performed as part of the ongoing “exploring the flame”. One doesn’t stop in order for the next in the sequence to start.

Yes, it does make sense to see it this way. Coincidently, I have a Lego vehicle that operates like that! The vehicle has two driving wheels in the front and a castor-wheel at back, and is steered by varying the relative speeds of the two drive motors. An infrared receiver is mounted up front and can be turned left or right by another motor. The IR receiver is operated in beacon mode, which means that if you aim an IR beacon in its direction, the signal generated gives a numerical indication of the horizontal angular displacement of the beacon relative to the receiver.

The motor that positions the IR receiver is operated by a control system that tries to keep the receiver pointed directly at the beacon; deviations to left or right cause the motor to operate so as the eliminate the deviation. So as you move the beacon, the IR receiver, which resembles a head with two eyes, turns to follow.

The angle of the “head� relative to the vehicle’s body is determined by its own control system, which has a reference angle of zero. When the head (IR receiver) is not pointed directly at the beacon, it swivels left or right to reduce the displacement of the beacon to zero. But this disturbs the system that is trying to keep the angle between head and body at zero, so the that system changes the relative speeds of the drive motors so as to turn the vehicle in the direction that reduces this angle. So first the head turns toward the beacon, and as the head turns, the vehicle turns to make the body align with the head.

So here we have Dewey’s two “coordinations,� one centering the beacon’s position relative to the IR receiver (Dewey’s “looking�), and one turning the body so that the vehicle’s forward motion is toward the beacon (Dewey’s “reaching�).

Â

I don’t want to argue what Dewey intended or imagined, because I could do no more than speculate in the light of our current understanding. All I want to say is that there is a rather unstrained interpretation of what he wrote that is pretty much PCT-compatible. What seems to me to be lacking is not the concept of control, but the word. The mechanism was a couple of decades into the future, and with it the notion of loop gain. According to my shallow reading, he also seems to lack the concept that we would call the disturbance, though it might be there or in his other writings. That does not depend on understanding the mechanism of control.

I agree.

Bruce

image00427.jpg

image00518.jpg

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.14.17.47]

···

Alex, this is a very cogent paper.
Coincidentally, while reading it over the course of several days,
I was also watching a “Great Courses” course entitled “The biology
of Human Behaviour: The neurological origins of individuality” (24
lectures). It is a good series from which I have learned quite a
bit, but the lecturer falls prey to exactly the problems that you
describe. Reading and watching both together, it was obvious how
much better this good series of lectures might have been had the
lecturer read and taken to heart your paper.

  Martin
      Please

see this (attached). I wrote this paper precisely because of
Dewey’s insight.Â


Alex Gomez-Marin, PhD

Research Group Leader

Instituto de Neurociencias

behavior-of-organisms.org

      On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Bruce

Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com
wrote:

              [From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1145

EST)]

Â

              Thanks, Fred, I appreciate your

input.

Â

Bruce

Â

From:
Fred Nickols <fred@nickols.us >
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 6:51 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the
reflex arc

Â

                [From

Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Â

                Well,

I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact
talking about circular causation. His use of
“circuit� is consistent with a loop, with something
that starts and ends at the same place. He also is
thinking about control and about the relationship
between ends and means. I don’t think he had
anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely
focused on a circular view of causation, with
stimulus and response as relative terms and then
only in the context of a circle or loop.

Â

                P.S. 

Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I
have, however, read one of his books: “How We
Think.� Good reading.

Â

                Fred

Nickols

Â

From:
Richard Pfau <richardhpfau@gmail.com >
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the
reflex arc

Â

                    [From:

Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Â

Bruce,

Â

                    Thank

you for providing Dewey’s article. Very
interesting. I had seen references to it
before, but this is the first time I have read
it.

Â

                    My

reading of the article is that his thinking is
compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what
is happening.Â

Â

                    For

example, in his criticism of the reflex arc
concept, he states “What we have is a circuit,
not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This
circuit is more truly termed organic than
reflex, because the motor response determines
the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus
determines movement” (p. 363).  Similarly, on
the last page he writes that “The reflex arc
theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of
the circuit… The circle is a coordination…
It is the coordination which unifies that which
the reflex arc concept gives us only in
disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

Â

                    With

Regards,

Rich

Â

Â

Â

                    On

Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott <bbabbott@frontier.com >
wrote:

                        [From

Bruce Abbott (2018.0411.1600 EDT)]

Â

                          In 1896 the

American philosopher John Dewey published
what came to be an influential article, * The
Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology* .Â
The reflex arc  is the foundational
concept of stimulus-response psychology,
in which all behavior is said to occur as
responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of
PCT sometimes point to this article as
containing an early recognition that
behavior operates via a closed loop of
circular causation and not, as the reflex
arc concept implies, via a one-way, open
loop pathway leading from stimulus through
the nervous system to response. Yet on
rereading this seminal paper I find reason
to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s
analysis.

Â

                        To

be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for
easy reading. It can be difficult to
comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and
perhaps it is this fact that has led readers
to read into that writing more than is
actually stated It is also possible that I
am not understanding Dewey correctly, and
for that reason I’ve attached the article as
a pdf and would ask anyone who may be
interested to read it and provide their own
analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then
have a conversation about it. The paper is
short.

Â

Bruce

Â

much appreciated.Â

···

On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 11:53 PM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net wrote:

[Martin Taylor 2018.04.14.17.47]

  Alex, this is a very cogent paper.

Coincidentally, while reading it over the course of several days,
I was also watching a “Great Courses” course entitled “The biology
of Human Behaviour: The neurological origins of individuality” (24
lectures). It is a good series from which I have learned quite a
bit, but the lecturer falls prey to exactly the problems that you
describe. Reading and watching both together, it was obvious how
much better this good series of lectures might have been had the
lecturer read and taken to heart your paper.

  Martin
      Please

see this (attached). I wrote this paper precisely because of
Dewey’s insight.Â


Alex Gomez-Marin, PhD

Research Group Leader

Instituto de Neurociencias

behavior-of-organisms.org


Alex Gomez-Marin, PhD

Research Group Leader

Instituto de Neurociencias

behavior-of-organisms.org

      On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 5:46 PM, Bruce

Abbott bbabbott@frontier.com
wrote:

              [From Bruce Abbott (2018.04.12.1145

EST)]

Â

              Thanks, Fred, I appreciate your

input.

Â

Bruce

Â

From:
Fred Nickols <fred@nickols.us >
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 6:51 AM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: RE: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the
reflex arc

Â

                [From

Fred Nickols (2018.04.12.0646 ET)]

Â

                Well,

I’ve read it twice and I think Dewey is in fact
talking about circular causation. His use of
“circuit� is consistent with a loop, with something
that starts and ends at the same place. He also is
thinking about control and about the relationship
between ends and means. I don’t think he had
anything like PCT in mind but he was definitely
focused on a circular view of causation, with
stimulus and response as relative terms and then
only in the context of a circle or loop.

Â

                P.S. 

Like Richard, I hadn’t before read Dewey’s paper. I
have, however, read one of his books: “How We
Think.� Good reading.

Â

                Fred

Nickols

Â

From:
Richard Pfau <richardhpfau@gmail.com >
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: csgnet@lists.illinois.edu
Subject: Re: Dewey’s (1896) critique of the
reflex arc

Â

                    [From:

Richard Pfau (2018.04.11)]

Â

Bruce,

Â

                    Thank

you for providing Dewey’s article. Very
interesting. I had seen references to it
before, but this is the first time I have read
it.

Â

                    My

reading of the article is that his thinking is
compatible with PCT’s closed-loop view of what
is happening.Â

Â

                    For

example, in his criticism of the reflex arc
concept, he states “What we have is a circuit,
not an arc or broken segment of a circle. This
circuit is more truly termed organic than
reflex, because the motor response determines
the stimulus, just as truly as sensory stimulus
determines movement” (p. 363).  Similarly, on
the last page he writes that “The reflex arc
theory…gives us literally an arc, instead of
the circuit… The circle is a coordination…
It is the coordination which unifies that which
the reflex arc concept gives us only in
disjointed fragments” (p. 370).

Â

                    With

Regards,

Rich

Â

Â

Â

                    On

Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Bruce Abbott <bbabbott@frontier.com >
wrote:

                        [From

Bruce Abbott (2018.0411.1600 EDT)]

Â

                          In 1896 the

American philosopher John Dewey published
what came to be an influential article, * The
Reflex Arc Concept in Psychology* .Â
The reflex arc  is the foundational
concept of stimulus-response psychology,
in which all behavior is said to occur as
responses to prior stimuli. Proponents of
PCT sometimes point to this article as
containing an early recognition that
behavior operates via a closed loop of
circular causation and not, as the reflex
arc concept implies, via a one-way, open
loop pathway leading from stimulus through
the nervous system to response. Yet on
rereading this seminal paper I find reason
to doubt this understanding of Dewey’s
analysis.

Â

                        To

be sure, Dewey’s writing does not make for
easy reading. It can be difficult to
comprehend exactly what Dewey intends, and
perhaps it is this fact that has led readers
to read into that writing more than is
actually stated It is also possible that I
am not understanding Dewey correctly, and
for that reason I’ve attached the article as
a pdf and would ask anyone who may be
interested to read it and provide their own
analysis of Dewey’s meaning, and we can then
have a conversation about it. The paper is
short.

Â

Bruce

Â