<[Bill Leach 950218.23:19 EST(EDT)]
(Erling Jorgensen 950217.08:45CST)
... the oscillatory effect of too high gain that you mentioned,
(although I'm still not clear as to why that happens.)
In the perfect control loop (theoritical of course); gain is infinite and
response time is zero.
In such a control loop ANY disturbance to the controlled variable is
instantaneously corrected with the application of overwhelming force.
The controlled variable stays at exactly the reference value no matter
what disturbance(s) are present.
In a real control system there is always a non-zero response time. If a
disturbance occurs the controlled variable will change and continue to
change... at some later time, the perception will change which of course
results in a change in the error output signal. Even later the actual
output action will occur in an attempt to correct the perceptual error.
Now if the gain is too high, the output signal will be too large causing
the output function to be greater than is necessary to correct the
original error creating a condition refered to as "overshoot" by control
systems engineers.
Again, the excessive output corrections effect on the controlled variable
is eventually seen in the perceptual signal and an error signal will be
generated to correct this new error but as before the output function
will be too great and overshoot again occurs. (As an aside; note that
the control system itself "does not know" that this is an error in its'
own control operations as opposed to an oscillatory disturbance).
If the gain is just slightly too high, overshoot will occur but what is
seen is what is commonly called "damped oscillations". That is, an
transient disturbance will result in overshoot but the correction for the
first overshoot result in less overshoot than the initial one, etc.
Insufficient gain just results in "poor" control (with "poor" meaning
less than is possible). Low gain control is NOT necessarily a "bad"
thing. Sometimes even engineered control systems are intentionally
designed for "low gain control".
An additional aspect of control systems that is probably relevent to
application to living systems is the concept of "deadband". Control
systems are often designed to ignore "small" changes perceived in the
controlled variable. From an engineering standpoint this is often done
to avoid "thrashing" (continous or almost continous output actions to
correct errors that are of no consequence to the process).
I think that living systems use this technique a great deal. That is
there are many times where "that's good enough" when we know we could do
better. Since "driving a car" seems to be a popular "control topic":
When you drive a car, your reference is to keep the car roughly in the
correct lane. You are generally not concerned whether the car is exactly
centered in the lane. Nor are you concerned with the exact position with
respect to the "lane divider".
This last brings up yet another common characteristic of many control
systems and that is the characteristic of non-linear response. When
driving a car that is drifting toward the lane divider your control action
to compensate will become increasingly more vigorous the closer to the
lane divider that you get (typically).
Of course this example (as in almost all such examples suffers from
excessive simplicity). An additional factor for the "real" example is
that for most people their perception related to the possibility of a
head on collision increases sharply if they perceive that their car will
be in the on-coming traffic lane. In this case, we could be talking
about control action from a different control system adding to the
existing error signal.
The basic concern for counseling, as I'm thinking of it through a PCT
framework, is how might a client alter the nature of their output
function, input function, and/or reference-goal, in order to achieve
better control of their own perceptions. ...
I agree naturally. I also realize that there was a problem with how I
was viewing your statements.
When you talked about changing the "input function" or the "output
function" I was thinking in terms of changing the function itself and not
changing the selection of function. That is, I was thinking in terms of
"rewiring the existing function" (clearly a reorganization action). Not
that this would not necessarily be possible but also not (I think) what
you were actually talking about.
Erling:
Often, one of the first to be tried is behavioral change -- i.e., the
output function -- so as to better counteract the effects of those
disturbances. ...
Me:
I would suggest here that this is not possible. If the counselor
recognizes an unintended effect of the subject's behaviour then it may
well be possible to "cause a change in the output function" ...
Erling:
I didn't mean the counselor was (directly) 'causing the change'. Only
the client can try some other behavior to "see if it works" to control
something important to them.
This still bothers me but at least now I think I know why. The emphasis
here is on the wrong part of the problem. The client may well not know
that "their behaviour" is a problem and their might be some value in
discussing the conflict resulting from this perception (by others).
It seems to me that the issue is always the reference -- what is it that
the client is trying to do? If what the client wants to accomplish is
itself not the source of conflict but rather something like unintended
consequences then by all means, the counselor's efforts should be
directed at helping the client see how to achieve the goal (including
setting references for not creating unnecessary conflict).
Changing "input functions" might actually be easier than one would think
since Ed Ford has worked in this particular area with specific techniques
that seem to work well. It may be instructive to those that think that
just telling someone that they are viewing the world incorrectly will
work to see what Ed has the client do and why. Changing what we expect
from the world and therefore our perceptions is definately NOT an easy
task.
... But isn't this simply recognizing and using alternate degrees of
freedom, if they're available?
I don't think so... at least not exactly. While "degrees of freedom" get
bantered about a lot on CSG-L the reference is usually to mathematically
possible freedom. We all "know" that there is often many different ways
to accomplish a task and most recognize that there are ways to accomplish
a given take of which we have no knowledge. However, we DO choose some
method for some reason. Just the suggestion that another method would be
better is not sufficient. Having a person "think out" an alternate
method would likely be more successful.
... environmental feedback loop
I'm still not sure that I am following you on this one. The ways in
which the counselor can become a part of the feedback loop are when the
counselor becomes an intervener... that is the counselor applies a
disturbance to what the client is attempting to control in hopefully a
"co-operative" manner.
The "evocative empathy" that you mention may well be a useful tool for
the counselor in trying to understand the client and indeed it may well
be very useful in helping the client to understand the "issue".
A very real danger in this "evocative empathy" is that the counselor's
own standards and references can become involved. It is, I believe, very
important to not be "judgemental". One should be very reluctant to
"offer advice". There is in my mind a crucial difference between the
sort of thing that Ed does and most "well intentioned" counseling.
"You can often tell after the fact when you have gone beyond the
intended message, since the other person rejects what you have said or
falls silent and withdraws or suddenly changes the topic." All of these
seem to be negative feedback responses that counteract the effect of what
the counselor has said, because it is taking the client 'off target' ...
This is undoubtedly true but there is some "assumptive baggage" here.
'Off target' carries the implication that the target is the issue to be
resolved and ignores the references that the client may have for their
perception of what the counselor "thinks of them". A very real problem
is always that the reference that the client TALKS about is not actually
the reference that is at issue.
"consistent with reality"
I admit that I was loose with that term. The extreme is the sort of
thing that a counselor would not want to deal with... people that think
that they can defy gravity and such.
Such is a "judgement call" but at times one does encounter people that
really do misinterpret what is going on around them in some often simple
way.
counselor as a disturbance
At some point and undoubtedly at some times it is likely that a counselor
has to be a disturbance to the client. This should not be intentional
however (except as I mentioned before as an attention getting device).
From a PCT standpoint, the counselor is trying to help the client to
control well. This can only be accomplished with the client establishes
references that are consistant internally and with the client's
environment. If the counselor has additional goals such as a corporate
counselor may have then yes disturbances and conflict become more
probable.
My view of "our counselor" is that the counselor is a disinterested party
only interested is helping the client to control well. This is not
completely realistic of course but as soon as you add the counselor's own
standards and systems concepts the discussion becomes hopelessly complex.
... I simply cannot see any other point of input to the control loop
than the reference (accessible only to the client) or the disturbance
(accessible to the environment, including counselors).
Remember, not all environmental variables are under control and thus not
all perceptions are controlled. Providing information to a client is not
necessarily a disturbance -- hopefully it results in a perception (client
is not asleep, etc). For example, if you provide information to a client
that results in the client having a perception that the client has done
something wrong (by the client's own reference standards) -- YOU have not
really 'disturbed' the client (in the PCT sense) if your information was
accepted as truth and the client has a high reference level for truth.
The disturbance is rather the result of an internal conflict.
Reorganization is a whole 'nother question, and who knows what
parameters that changes?
Yes, it is but it also might be the source of "If you don't succeed at
first ..." I don't believe that we know enough about reorganization yet
to talk much about "intentionally" causing its activation.
modeling "understanding another's point of view"
You probably should talk with Tom Bourbon about the modeling question but
I suggest that the still tentative nature of the levels of perception may
make any attempt difficult. I don't want to dump "cold water" on an idea
and I know that many really creative modeling ideas can overcome the most
"rational" of "it can't be dones"...
Isn't "abandoning one's goal" a way to ...
Yes.
Well, actually there are several ways that such could occur. In the
first place any known biological comparitor has a single "polarity"
output signal. A single comparitor is essentially a subtractor. The
effect then is that either the perception is subtracted from the
reference or vice versa but not both. Thus if the perception is
subtracted from the reference and the reference is zero then the error
output for all values of the perception is also zero.
In the case of "bi-directional" control loops, what actually exists are
multiple simple control loops. Thus for the example given above, the
second control loop would (in effect) subtract the reference from the
perception in its' comparitor. For a "don't care" condition the
reference would be set for maximum and as long as the perception could
not exceed a maximum reference (not likely) then this error output would
also be zero.
For such a "loop" to begin controlling, the references for both
comparitors would be changed. The zero reference of the first comparitor
would be raised to some non-zero value and the maximum of the second
comparitor would be lowered. Depending upon relative signal strenghts,
desired deadband and the like the two reference may even be very close to
the same absolute magnitude.
Martin brought up several interesting concepts concerning this sort of an
arrangment. If the effective references overlap but the two loops are
non-linear control is still possible. A possible case might be when one
"tenses" muscles while keeping the limb in a fixed position. It is in
fact highly likely that the particular situation described by Martin IS
what happens.
... perceptions not involved in any control loops? Don't we have to
think of non-controlled perceptions in terms of references that drift to
keep error at zero? (And can't this be accomplished by cycling ...
I don't know that anyone will argue too vigorously that it is not
possible that this is what is going on except that such calls for
switching that is not included in the current model. The current model
can handle the "uncontrolled" perception quite well as it now stands just
by setting the reference at one extreme or the other. There is some
biological research data that is at least somewhat supportive of this
concept.
-bill