# Disturbances and Firefighting

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/disturbances-and-firefighting/3562>\
**Category:** CSG2008\
**Created:** [October 23, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/disturbances-and-firefighting/3562 "2008-10-23T16:56:27Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 5\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Fred\_Nickols1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@Fred\_Nickols1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Fred_Nickols1)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/disturbances-and-firefighting/3562/1 "2008-10-23T16:56:27Z")

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[From Fred Nickols (2008.10.23.0948 MST)]

I’m reading a paper about Activity Theory as applied  
to organizational analysis, and a section in it mentions disturbances, which  
are defined as interruptions or interferences with goal attainment. Sound  
familiar? Anyway, it goes on to say that if disturbances are seen  
as irritants, as problems to be overcome, it is unlike that the people involved  
will get beyond “firefighting” (i.e., treating the symptoms and  
then returning to business as usual).

It seems to me that “firefighting” as encountered  
in many organizations is simply a matter of people acting to restore control  
over some targeted variable and is to be expected from a PCT perspective.  
Further, also from a PCT perspective, you wouldn’t expect people to get  
beyond firefighting in relation to some targeted variable (goal) UNLESS they  
also had a reference value for things like “eliminating root cause”  
or “reducing the amount of firefighting” or some such other, more  
fundamental goal. In short, firefighting is a form of action that serves  
to counter a disturbance. Getting beyond firefighting would require  
having a goal of doing so.

Does that sound right to the rest of you?

Regards,

Fred Nickols

Managing Partner

Distance Consulting, LLC

[nickols@att.net](mailto:nickols@att.net)

[www.nickols.us](http://www.nickols.us)

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**Author:** ![BRUCE\_STEPHANIE\_ABBO](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/d26b3c/32.png) [@BRUCE\_STEPHANIE\_ABBO](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/BRUCE_STEPHANIE_ABBO)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/disturbances-and-firefighting/3562/2 "2008-10-23T18:49:40Z")

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[From Bruce Abbott (2008.10.23.1435 EST)]

That sounds right to me. The situation you  
describe resembles the situation in which you are attempting to drive in a  
particular direction but a wheel alignment problem causes the wheel to pull to  
the left. One strategy is to keep enough counteracting pressure on the  
wheel to keep the car going where you want it to (i.e., continually correcting  
the disturbance). Another strategy is to get the wheels aligned and  
eliminate this source of disturbance.

Executing strategies like the second one  
presumes that you can identify the source of the disturbance, that it is  
possible to eliminate (or at least reduce) the disturbance, and that the potential  
benefits associated with doing so are perceived as outweighing the costs.  
Such actions seem to me to presume the existence of higher-level control  
systems (relative to the one in question) that have references for the  
variables involved in the decision to follow the second stragegy (e.g.,  
longer-term goals such as minimizing the strain incurred while driving, or keeping  
your money in the bank rather than spending it on repairs).

Bruce A.

Fred  
Nickols (2008.10.23.0948 MST) –

I’m  
reading a paper about Activity Theory as applied to organizational analysis,  
and a section in it mentions disturbances, which are defined as interruptions  
or interferences with goal attainment. Sound familiar? Anyway,  
it goes on to say that if disturbances are seen as irritants, as problems  
to be overcome, it is unlike that the people involved will get beyond  
“firefighting” (i.e., treating the symptoms and then returning to  
business as usual).

It  
seems to me that “firefighting” as encountered in many  
organizations is simply a matter of people acting to restore control over some  
targeted variable and is to be expected from a PCT perspective. Further,  
also from a PCT perspective, you wouldn’t expect people to get beyond  
firefighting in relation to some targeted variable (goal) UNLESS they also had  
a reference value for things like “eliminating root cause” or  
“reducing the amount of firefighting” or some such other, more  
fundamental goal. In short, firefighting is a form of action that serves  
to counter a disturbance. Getting beyond firefighting would require  
having a goal of doing so.

Does  
that sound right to the rest of you?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/user_avatar/discourse.iapct.org/rsmarken/32/3553_2.png) [@rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/rsmarken)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/disturbances-and-firefighting/3562/3 "2008-10-23T19:57:50Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2008.10.23.1255)

> Fred Nickols (2008.10.23.0948 MST)  
> ...  
> It seems to me that "firefighting" as encountered in many organizations is  
> simply a matter of people acting to restore control over some targeted  
> variable and is to be expected from a PCT perspective. Further, also from a  
> PCT perspective, you wouldn't expect people to get beyond firefighting in  
> relation to some targeted variable (goal) UNLESS they also had a reference  
> value for things like "eliminating root cause" or "reducing the amount of  
> firefighting" or some such other, more fundamental goal. In short,  
> firefighting is a form of action that serves to counter a disturbance.  
> Getting beyond firefighting would require having a goal of doing so.
> 
> Does that sound right to the rest of you?

Sounds right to me. But then I'm voting for a socialist, un-American  
terrorist sympathizer for president so how much could I know;-)

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> --  
> Richard S. Marken PhD  
> rsmarken@gmail.com

---

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**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers1)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/disturbances-and-firefighting/3562/4 "2008-10-23T20:53:18Z")

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[From Bill Powers (2008.10.23.1442 MDT)]

Four days until the movers get here.

[From Fred Nickols (2008.10.23.0948 MST)]

> It seems to me that "firefighting" as encountered in many  
> organizations is simply a matter of people acting to restore control  
> over some targeted variable and is to be expected from a PCT  
> perspective. Further, also from a PCT perspective, you wouldn't  
> expect people to get beyond firefighting in relation to some  
> targeted variable (goal) UNLESS they also had a reference value for  
> things like "eliminating root cause" or "reducing the amount of  
> firefighting" or some such other, more fundamental goal.

For "more fundamental" read "higher level." "Firefighting" means  
acting to counteract disturbances relative to a constant goal. This  
is what happens when people get stuck in a conflict; when they  
encounter a disturbance, all they can think of doing is pushing back  
harder. If they stay focused on that problem, they will just make the  
conflict more and more severe.

> In short, firefighting is a form of action that serves to counter a  
> disturbance. Getting beyond firefighting would require having a  
> goal of doing so.

It would require changing the goal, which requires going up a level  
and asking questions like "how important is it to win this conflict?"  
or "am I trying to achieve the right goal?"

Best,

Bill P.

No virus found in this outgoing message.  
Checked by AVG - [http://www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)  
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1741 - Release Date: 10/23/2008 7:54 AM

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/user_avatar/discourse.iapct.org/rsmarken/32/3553_2.png) [@rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/rsmarken)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/disturbances-and-firefighting/3562/5 "2008-10-23T21:54:06Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2008.10.23.1450)]

> Bill Powers (2008.10.23.1442 MDT)--

> > Fred Nickols (2008.10.23.0948 MST)--
> 
> > It seems to me that "firefighting" as encountered in many organizations

> For "more fundamental" read "higher level." "Firefighting" means acting to  
> counteract disturbances relative to a constant goal. This is what happens  
> when people get stuck in a conflict; when they encounter a disturbance, all  
> they can think of doing is pushing back harder. If they stay focused on that  
> problem, they will just make the conflict more and more severe.

Dear me, I thought Fred was talking about fighting \_fires\_. Never mind;-)

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> --  
> Richard S. Marken PhD  
> rsmarken@gmail.com