[Martin Taylor 2017.05.29.17.45]
To change the topic entirely, dreaming and imagining have quite a lot in common, but have a different feel subjectively, quite apart from the fact that one happens when you are asleep and the other when you are awake. How might each be described, and in particular how might they be distinguished within the basic structure of HPCT?
I think this is a legitimate question, despite the totally subjective nature of the experiences. After all, Powers built his entire eleven-level structure from his subjective experience.
I have my own notions, but they are no more than suggestions that I might disown next week, and I would like to know what others might think without being biased one way or the other by what I might propose.
Martin
[Bruce Nevin 2017.06.05.13.35]
To understand the distinctions between remembering, imagining, and dreaming, I believe the model must show how one perception evokes another from memory.
I think a model of associative memory in the hierarchy is essential to understanding and modeling language and language use as well.
···
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 12:19 AM, Martin Taylor mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net wrote:
[Martin Taylor 2017.05.29.17.45
]
To change the topic entirely, dreaming and imagining have quite a lot in common, but have a different feel subjectively, quite apart from the fact that one happens when you are asleep and the other when you are awake. How might each be described, and in particular how might they be distinguished within the basic structure of HPCT?
I think this is a legitimate question, despite the totally subjective nature of the experiences. After all, Powers built his entire eleven-level structure from his subjective experience.
I have my own notions, but they are no more than suggestions that I might disown next week, and I would like to know what others might think without being biased one way or the other by what I might propose.
Martin
[From Rick Marken (2017.06.06.0900)]
···
Martin Taylor (2017.05.29.17.45)_-
MT: To change the topic entirely, dreaming and imagining have quite a lot in common, but have a different feel subjectively, quite apart from the fact that one happens when you are asleep and the other when you are awake. How might each be described, and in particular how might they be distinguished within the basic structure of HPCT?
RM: For me, dreams are experienced as more real than imaginings while awake. I believe that Powers suggested that the vividness of imaginings depends on how low in the control hierarchy the imagination loop is closed.Â
RM: The lowest possible closure is at level 2 (presumably sensations) since the level 1 loops (intensities) are closed through the environment. My guess is that the realism of dreams results from the difference between the dream and awake states in terms of how low in the hierarchy the loops can be closed. When we imagine while awake it seems that we are unable to put our lowest level control systems into imagination mode, probably because it is so essential to keep those variables under control. For example, you don’t want to have the systems perceiving the position of the car going into imagination mode while you are imagining what you are going to do at the beach when you get there. But when we dream we apparently  go into a state where even the lowest levels of the hierarchy can go into imagination mode. It seems that sometimes even the very lowest, intensity level systems go into imagination mode when we sleep – particularly when we are falling asleep –  hence those times when you wake yourself kicking down against a non-existent floor to restore your imagined balance.Â
Best
Rick
Â
I think this is a legitimate question, despite the totally subjective nature of the experiences. After all, Powers built his entire eleven-level structure from his subjective experience.
I have my own notions, but they are no more than suggestions that I might disown next week, and I would like to know what others might think without being biased one way or the other by what I might propose.
Martin
–
Richard S. MarkenÂ
"Perfection is achieved not when you have nothing more to add, but when you
have nothing left to take away.�
                --Antoine de Saint-Exupery