e. coli

[From Bruce Abbott (970414.1835 EST)]

Bill Powers (970413.2221 MST) --

The reason I put "mutants" in quotes is that this oddball behavior might be
explained by the existence of a higher level control system that varies the
reference signal for the tumbling system. If some bacteria are replete, the
reference level for the rate of change of concentration might be zero, or
even negative. Similarly, for very hungry bacteria, the reference level
might be set so high that swimming can never increase the rate of change
enough to slow the rate of tumbling. Of course the latter bacteria are
doomed, because if they always tumble they will not progress toward the
source of the nutrient except by a low-probability chance.

You may recall a similar model I put together and published on CSGnet, in
which error in the bacterium's on-board nutrient level ("hunger") altered
the _gain_ of the lower-level system. This two-level system became more
"interested" in going up the nutrient gradient as "hunger" increased, and
when on-board nutrient level exceeded reference, the animal actively avoided
an increasing nutrient gradient, as if repelled by the food (satiety?).

The behavior of the system was interesting to watch; it appeared as though
the bacterium became interested in "exploring" its environment when it had
had its fill of nutrient. When two nutrient sources were placed some
distance apart on the screen, this exploratory behavior often allowed the
bacterium to "discover" the second source and take advantage of it when
on-board nutrient level fell and the organism was once again in need of
food. On might have thought that a rather complex system would be required
to explain such a pattern. It is quite possible that a similar mechanism
may be at work in animals that under one set of conditions are, e.g.,
phototropic, and under another, photophobic. Also, one characteristic of
human hunger is that inputs such as the smell of dinner cooking on the stove
become far more attractive as hunger-level goes up. Perhaps this also may
be explained in terms of an increase in system gain.

Regards,

Bruce

[From Bill Powers (970415.0710 MST)]

Bruce Abbott (970414.1835 EST)--

You may recall a similar model I put together and published on CSGnet, in
which error in the bacterium's on-board nutrient level ("hunger") altered
the _gain_ of the lower-level system. This two-level system became more
"interested" in going up the nutrient gradient as "hunger" increased, and
when on-board nutrient level exceeded reference, the animal actively avoided
an increasing nutrient gradient, as if repelled by the food (satiety?).

Yes, that was an interesting model. It's another way to add a second level
of control to E. coli. In fact, in the "E. coli" method of reorganization
that has evolved over the last few years, it seems that the best basis for
varying the interval between random changes is the first derivative of the
error-signal-squared: d/dt (e^2), which is 2*e*(de/dt), the "2" being
absorbed into overall gain. Note that this has the effect of making the gain
relative to the rate of change of the controlled variable depend on the
magnitude of the error, so the gain is zero at zero error. This gives the
reference signal two roles: it sets the desired rate of change, and also
makes the gain depend on the error.

I've alway avoided getting into the subject of high level control through
variation of parameters, primarily because the math gets extremely hard
(nonlinear), but also because it obscures the organization of the basic
model, making it much harder to teach. Obviously (to me, anyhow), using
higher-level systems to control the performance of lower level systems by
changing their parameters is a way of achieving what looks like adaptation
(it's really not, since it involves a higher system with a fixed
organization). This would mean that a higher-level system senses something
that is not just a function of the lower perceptual signal, but something
that indicates how the lower system is performing -- the mean error signal,
for one simple example, or the rate of change of error signal, or even more
complicated functions such as the degree of damping. This might even involve
changing the sensitivity of the perceptual function or the gain of the
output function. Anything you can imagine is possible; the question is, what
is _necessary_ to explain what we observe in real behavior?

The only real attempt to use this kind of adaptive model was the "reversal"
experiment Rick and I did, in which a higher system could switch the sign of
the lower system's output function between positive and negative. If the
sign of the external feedback function was suddenly reversed, this
higher-level system reversed the output function's sign to stop the runway
that otherwise would occur. Even here, we did not work out a real _control_
model, that would always make the appropriate change in sign. To do that, it
would be necessary to sense the _relationship_ between direction of handle
movement and direction of change of the perception, so the higher system
could sense the sign of the feedback. Then a reference signal could specify
that negative feedback is to be maintained, and the sign of the lower
system's output function would then always be set correctly. To build this
model, you'd have to specify where this system got its information, with
appropriate pathways drawn into the diagram, and how it did the required
computations.

There seemed to be such a higher-order parameter-control system in the real
human controllers. After a reversal in the external feedback path, the human
subject's handle position would start to run away, along a positive
exponential. After about 0.4 seconds, control would be abruptly restored and
the error would start declining swiftly toward zero. The only way for this
to happen would be for some function inside the controller to have reversed
its sign, restoring negative feedback. We assumed it was the output function
that changed sign, and modeled accordingly.

To me, the problem is never that of finding A model that will achieve a
given performance. There's always some way to do it, and often 10, if you
put no limits on the connections you can draw in the diagrams or the
complexity of the computations you assume the system to be carrying out.
What I'm always looking for is the model that does the job in such a simple
and direct way that I feel "Yes, that's just GOT to be how it's really done
-- there's no simpler way." This is why I really like the Little Man's
kinesthetic control systems, which are simply copies of the way the reflexes
actually are wired up. There's not an extra pathway or an unnecessary
computation in that model; it just couldn't be any simpler. Yet it
stabilizes the jointed arm in three dimensions in a way that would be very
hard to figure out using Jacobians and all that stuff. Obviously, in the
spinal reflexes, there's no place to put the machinery that would be needed
to compute Jacobians or all the inverse kinematic and dynamic computations
that are needed to do it the way some people think it must be done. These
systems work with the brain chopped off at the thalamic level!

All this may explain why I feel sort of resentful about models that merrily
assume the most fantastically complex computations and bypass all questions
of how they get the necessary input of information. When you put no
restrictions on the complexity, all connection with the real system gets
lost. If you can solve the equations, you've got a model! To me, that seems
like just plain cheating: it's doing the easy part without considering
implementation at all. What's most frustrating is that you have to admit
that the model would work, if all those computations could actually be done
and all the required information were actually available with infinite
precision, and if the brain were so large that the organism would have to
carry it around on a fork-lift.

I think that any PhD course in PCT should involve a full set of courses on
circuit design, with analog being given at least as much attention as
digital. The problem with modeling is that when you're just learning how to
do it, coming up with even ONE model seems like a major triumph. But after
you've designed and built a lot of circuits, you begin to see that this is
only a minor part of the problem, especially when you're reverse-engineering
an existing system. There is a whole array of designs that would do the job;
the real problem is to pick a design that handles the problem simply,
efficiently, and in a way that could be expanded without starting over from
scratch. If you need a Cray (or Fujitsu) computer to simulate limb movements
in real time, you've got the wrong model, no matter how proud you are of
having solved the problem. There ain't no Cray computer in the spinal cord.
Just because you can write an equation doesn't mean that there is anything
in there solving that equation.

Best,

Bill P.

ยทยทยท

The behavior of the system was interesting to watch; it appeared as though
the bacterium became interested in "exploring" its environment when it had
had its fill of nutrient. When two nutrient sources were placed some
distance apart on the screen, this exploratory behavior often allowed the
bacterium to "discover" the second source and take advantage of it when
on-board nutrient level fell and the organism was once again in need of
food. On might have thought that a rather complex system would be required
to explain such a pattern. It is quite possible that a similar mechanism
may be at work in animals that under one set of conditions are, e.g.,
phototropic, and under another, photophobic. Also, one characteristic of
human hunger is that inputs such as the smell of dinner cooking on the stove
become far more attractive as hunger-level goes up. Perhaps this also may
be explained in terms of an increase in system gain.

Regards,

Bruce

[From Rick Marken (970417.1100 PDT)]

Bill Powers (970415.0710 MST) --

The only real attempt to use this kind of adaptive model was
the "reversal" experiment Rick and I did, in which a higher
system could switch the sign of the lower system's output
function between positive and negative...After a reversal in the
external feedback path, the human subject's handle position would
start to run away, along a positive exponential. After about 0.4
seconds, control would be abruptly restored and the error would
start declining swiftly toward zero.

You can experience this phenomenon (and compare the behavior of just the
lower level model to that of a human subject -- you) by going to:

http://www.leonardo.net/Marken/ControlDemo/Levels.html

Best

Rick

[Hans Blom, 970422b]

(Bill Powers (970415.0710 MST))

Thanks for the info about Koshland's coli experiments: I haven't been
able to get access to his book anywhere I looked.

Two quibbles:

Obviously (to me, anyhow), using higher-level systems to control the
performance of lower level systems by changing their parameters is a
way of achieving what looks like adaptation (it's really not, since
it involves a higher system with a fixed organization).

Then what would "adaptation" mean to you? There always seems to be a
highest (lowest?) level with a fixed organization, or at least with
fixed "building blocks" that lower (higher?) levels can use to
construct their own thing. Atoms come to mind as pretty well fixed
building blocks. Molecules. Cells. Organs. Etc.

Obviously, in the spinal reflexes, there's no place to put the
machinery that would be needed to compute Jacobians or all the
inverse kinematic and dynamic computations that are needed to do it
the way some people think it must be done. These systems work with
the brain chopped off at the thalamic level!

Just like a rock does not have the machinery that would be needed to
compute and propel its path through space in accordance to all the
laws of physics. These remarkable systems work with no brain at all!

Greetings,

Hans

[From Bill Powers (970422.1204 MST)]

Hans Blom, 970422b--

Obviously (to me, anyhow), using higher-level systems to control the
performance of lower level systems by changing their parameters is a
way of achieving what looks like adaptation (it's really not, since
it involves a higher system with a fixed organization).

Then what would "adaptation" mean to you? There always seems to be a
highest (lowest?) level with a fixed organization, or at least with
fixed "building blocks" that lower (higher?) levels can use to
construct their own thing. Atoms come to mind as pretty well fixed
building blocks. Molecules. Cells. Organs. Etc.

I could have said, more clearly, "a higher system with a learned
organization." To me, adaptation requires an unlearned system, so it can
work properly from the beginning of an organism's life. If you learn a rule
that results in minimizing errors in a lower system, I count that rule as
something that -- probably -- resulted from some adaptive process. But once
it's learned, it's just another behavior, of a higher level.

Obviously, in the spinal reflexes, there's no place to put the
machinery that would be needed to compute Jacobians or all the
inverse kinematic and dynamic computations that are needed to do it
the way some people think it must be done. These systems work with
the brain chopped off at the thalamic level!

Just like a rock does not have the machinery that would be needed to
compute and propel its path through space in accordance to all the
laws of physics. These remarkable systems work with no brain at all!

Oh, we're back to saying "evolution did it," are we? No comment.

I think this is the end of our discussion on this subject. You have your
theory of how things work, and I have mine. I prefer to work on mine rather
than arguing with you about yours.

Best,

Bill P.

[Hans Blom, 970424f]

(Bill Powers (970422.1204 MST))

Then what would "adaptation" mean to you? There always seems to be
a highest (lowest?) level with a fixed organization, or at least
with fixed "building blocks" that lower (higher?) levels can use to
construct their own thing. Atoms come to mind as pretty well fixed
building blocks. Molecules. Cells. Organs. Etc.

I could have said, more clearly, "a higher system with a learned
organization." To me, adaptation requires an unlearned system, so it
can work properly from the beginning of an organism's life. If you
learn a rule that results in minimizing errors in a lower system, I
count that rule as something that -- probably -- resulted from some
adaptive process. But once it's learned, it's just another behavior,
of a higher level.

The distinction is hardly ever that clear-cut, I think. First, it is
reasonable to assume that the starting point of adaptation is _not_
zero knowledge but that some built-in knowledge is already in place.
Second, learning is hardly ever over: in many cases it is essential
that outdated knowledge is forgotten so that new knowledge can take
its place. Thus, I consider adaptation or "tuning" to be a process
that occurs continually and that consists of both forgetting and
(re)learning.

I think this is the end of our discussion on this subject. You have
your theory of how things work, and I have mine. I prefer to work on
mine rather than arguing with you about yours.

Fine. Going up a level: this type of conservatism seems to be a
reference for most people. And I think both PCT and MCT have good
explanations why this should be so...

Greetings,

Hans