Economics & PCT

I confess, I've been lurking...But I do want to say that I appreciate
the patience/intellectual integrity of Bill and Rick, and Shannon's
laid-back, pragmatic approach to the variety of questions, ideas, and
comments (crap and/or otherwise) on CSG. Please don't tire of us, we
are the next evolutionary blip :slight_smile:

All the best,

Andrew

···

On 8/5/10, Bill Powers <powers_w@frontier.net> wrote:

[From Bill Powers (2010.08.04.1855 MDT)]

Bruce Gregory (2010.08.03.1254 EDT) --

Let me suggest that you adopt Napoleon's advice and think of me as
incompetent rather than malicious.

Considering how many times you've said you don't understand PCT, that
may be good advice -- for both of us. But if you're so incompetent
about PCT, why don't you just become competent instead of drawing all
those wild and malicious-sounding conclusions about it while being
satisfied with your ignorance? Lots of people have said that PCT is
exactly what you're doubting that it is: a revolution at a very deep
level that is going to change all the behavioral sciences. Wouldn't
you prefer to be among the first than the last to realize this? Is
defense of the status quo of such importance to you?

Bill P.

Bruce

Hi Bruce !

B.H.
It's not that majority of behavioral scientists have failed to see PCT as an
important tool. They accepted it and used, but they didn't mentioned the
source of their "new ideas" or they rephrase the PCT theory to their own
needs. Somewhere they did mentioned
Bill, somewhere they didn't.

[From Rick Marken (2010.08.03.2240)]
But I have learned over the last 30 years that this is not the usual
approach to dealing with the PCT cautions about the open-loop methods of
conventional behavioral science. ďż˝.But whatever it is in any particular
case, it has kept virtually all behavioral scientists from even considering
the possibility that the behavior of the subjects in their studies is closed
loop and that, therefore, apparent causal relationships between S and R that
are observed in these studies might not be what they appear to be.

B.G.
Play nice, you two.

B.H.
I think there is no contradictions in our threads. I wrote that behavioral
scientist accepted and used PCT. I didn't wrote that behavioral scientist
understood PCT as closed loop fact and use it. So I don't see the reason why
shouldn't we believe Rick's 30 years observations.
Although I think Bill is probably the only one who can answer how behavioral
scientist understood PCT. It's after all his theory.

Based on my observation I could say that the most powerful evidence of using
Bill's Theory by various authors, is his unigue diagram with "input
function" and "output function". I could say that's his "historical
signature". Most of behavioral scientists who used PCT ignore the fact of
"Control of perception" which is somehow part of this unique diagram and
it's closed loop functions. Behavioral scientists usually use "PCT tool" as
behavioral "tool". And beside that, there are more or less their
interpretations of diagram and sometimes hierarchy. On general behavioral
scientist by my opinion use parts of PCT or some principles, or their whole
"behavioristic" interpretation of PCT.
For full understanding of PCT I think we have to understand physics,
biology, phsyiology, engineering, etc. And I think that psychologist,
sociologist, economist don't understand them enough. So that's maybe why
observations done by Rick are as they are.

from Rick Marken to Bruce Gregory :
You misunderstand so consistently that it's quite obviously purposeful. You
clearly have no interest at all in understanding control theory. Join the crowd.

B.H.
Well Bruce, I don't think only, that you are not trying to understand PCT, I
think you are trying to destroy it, considering some of your threads. You
tried to show if I understood right that PCT is useless (send-box). You try
to make look like Bill is "suffering from
excessive enthusiasm". By my opinion you went too far even for my taste.
Don't be destructive. Try to be constructive.

I think that Bill should be respected for his 50 years of work. I think that
Bill's contribution to science is quite noticeable. See what eminent persons
like Kuhn, Rogers, etc. wrote about PCT.

I think that "Fact of Control" is historical fact and that sooner or later
it will be accepted in all behavioral sciences. It's quite obvious that
behavior is :
1. Control of perception
2. Hierarchically controlled though various open-closed control loops.

Let us forget now that Bill is by my opinion Control system with "high gain"
:)), what can be seen in relations to some of us. He is maybe sometimes
controlling his reference to tight. But I ask myself sometimes, that maybe a
good inventor has to be like this.
I still think that PCT is the best theory explaining behavior of "living
organisms".

And Bruce, you still didn't answer me :
1. Did you read B:CP ?
2. Why did you "vanished" from our conversation ?
3. If the teachers (community) expectations are more different from
students, can we expect more conflicts or disturbances to teaching process ?
4. Which is better theory than PCT ?

Running away from problems is not a solution. I hope you didn't have a
breakdown, http://greaterfool.net/page47/page77/page77.html.

�The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the
easiest person to fool.ďż˝ ďż˝ Richard Feynman
So first cleaning in your own house. Try applying PCT principles to your
behavior. Maybe you can be cured :))

Best,

Boris

(Gavin Ritz 2010.08.07.14.20NZT)

I’m back at the economics subject. I
don’t think this has not been discussed in any satisfactory manner.

Economics as I see it has tried to tie
itself to the rigors of science, which are really the rigors of math and science
together. Science cannot exist without maths and visa-versa. Now science can be
rigorous about matter and its properties but totally incapable when it comes to
“the what” with people.

Economics as I see tries to do the same as
science but there’s big problem humans runs the economics systems. And
when one looks at the economics assumptions about people it looks to me to be
so laughable as to be ridiculous. And yet we have thousands of shamans (economic
professors) who tell us what it’s all about.

I have tried to get some thoughts together
on PCT and economics and it looks like to me anyway that PCT probably has the
same problems. As we climb up the HPCT levels we have serious issues about what
the human criteria are that are linked into the economic systems.

I proposed some potential input functions
and reference signals (I generically called inner standards) but these have
been shot down.

So now what???

Regards

Gavin

[From Rick Marken (2010.08.07.0900)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.08.07.14.20NZT)

I�m back at the economics subject. I don�t think this has not been
discussed in any satisfactory manner.

Economics as I see it has tried to tie itself to the rigors of science,

I think what's missing from the "science" of economics is missing from
a lot of the work on PCT [Bill Powers (2010.08.06.0820 MDT)]: testing
the predictions of the mathematical models against empirical data.
That's what I liked about the book "Leakage" by Bill's dad, T. C.
Powers (http://www.amazon.com/Leakage-Bleeding-American-Treval-Powers/dp/0964712113/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281196321&sr=1-2).

In that book T. C. Powers presented a model of the macro economy and
tested that model against macro economic data. There were flaws in
that work but I think it was a good beginning.

I proposed some potential input functions and reference signals (I
generically called inner standards) but these have been shot down.

So now what???

I like my approach (of course), which is described in some material at
Economics Research. I think I posted this
before but I guess it didn't make much of an impression. It never
does, which is why I got out of the economics biz and back into the
research methodology biz. There's not much interest in the latter
either but at least I have the credentials for it;-)

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Frank Lenk (2010.08.12.1257 CDT)]

Hi Gang! - I see that while I've been stuck on big projects at work
since March, I've missed quite a lot regarding building PCT into models
that can help explain the economy (and a lot of other things, too).
Those "big projects" are finally coming to a close in a couple of weeks,
so I hope to pick up my dissertation work again.

In the meantime, I just saw this article from my alma matter that seemed
to suggest that cognitive science and psychology are beginning to pay
more attention to intentions and purposes. Thought you might enjoy it.

Frank

Frank Lenk
Director of Research Services
Mid-America Regional Council
Kansas City, Missouri

Article follows:

Stanford Report, August 11, 2010

Perceived intentions of others lead us to cherish those who lend a
helping hand, Stanford researchers find

MRI scans show brain's response to actions of others in Stanford study.
When we believe a person is doing something nice for someone else, we
really do take it personally. Our brains register the observation of a
good deed as a personal reward.

BY ADAM GORLICK

It might seem like a no-brainer: We're inclined to like generous people
more than stingy ones.

But what's driving our feelings about them? Is it what they're doing, or
why we think they're doing it?

That's where the brain comes in. After studying the gray matter of 38
people in a Stanford experiment, psychologists concluded it is the
perceived intentions - not the actions - of others that lead us to
cherish the charitable and spurn the selfish.

The finding comes from the work of Jeff Cooper, who spent his time as a
Stanford doctoral candidate studying a part of the brain called the
ventromedial prefrontal cortex. Scientists already knew the region is
stimulated by personal rewards, but Cooper wanted to see if it also
reacts to the actions of others.

He found that it does. And his science boils down to this: When we
believe a person is doing something nice for someone else, we take it
personally. Our brains register the observation of a good deed as a
personal reward.

That's important information, Cooper said, because "our questions about
someone's intentions determine how we react to outcomes."

"We realized that a pretty simple manipulation of context can really
change whether we feel an emotional engagement with people we don't know
or have a personal or tangible stake with," he said.
Cooper's findings will be published online Aug. 11 by the journal
Neuron.

Cooper - who is now a researcher in Trinity College, Dublin's Institute
for Neuroscience - had two groups of participants at Stanford watch
people play a financial game. The players were given a bit of money and
told to pitch in as much as they want to a common pot, which Cooper and
his colleagues doubled. At the end of the game, the money was evenly
split among the players.

The only difference between the groups of observers involved how the
actions of the players were described. One set of subjects was told the
players were engaged in a "stock market game," where their decisions
could result in personal loss or gain. The other subjects were told they
were watching a "public goods game," where the players could help
everyone make more money.

While the activities and strategies of the players were consistent when
both groups of observers watched them, the test subjects had quite
different feelings about them.

Tracking their brain reactions using specialized MRI scans, Cooper and
his fellow researchers could tell that watching people play the "stock
market" game didn't incite much activity in the ventromedial prefrontal
cortex.

But when it came to watching the players in the so-called "public goods"
game, activity in that brain region fired up.

Those who gave generously to the common pot were met with brain signals
showing positive emotions, suggesting the observers really liked those
players. And players who withheld contributions were regarded with
disdain.

"The test demonstrates that what people do doesn't really matter all the
time," said Brian Knutson, an associate professor of psychology and
neuroscience who co-authored Cooper's paper. "What we think others are
intending is what really matters. Essentially, even though people saw
the exact same game, framing the game changed the test subjects' neural
reactions to the players."

Understanding how and why people react to others' giving and taking can
help politicians persuade voters on tricky issues like welfare, taxes
and education. It can help jurors decide disputes. And it can explain
why people get so upset when Wall Street bankers get huge bonuses even
as the stock market crumbles.

"If your perspective is: 'How could they make so much money when the
policies they've adopted are so questionable?' that means you're
thinking about the world of investment as a public goods game," Knutson
said.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Marken
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:01 AM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: [CSGNET] Economics & PCT

[From Rick Marken (2010.08.07.0900)]

Gavin Ritz (2010.08.07.14.20NZT)

I'm back at the economics subject. I don't think this has not been
discussed in any satisfactory manner.

Economics as I see it has tried to tie itself to the rigors of

science,

I think what's missing from the "science" of economics is missing from
a lot of the work on PCT [Bill Powers (2010.08.06.0820 MDT)]: testing
the predictions of the mathematical models against empirical data.
That's what I liked about the book "Leakage" by Bill's dad, T. C.
Powers
(http://www.amazon.com/Leakage-Bleeding-American-Treval-Powers/dp/096471
2113/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281196321&sr=1-2).

In that book T. C. Powers presented a model of the macro economy and
tested that model against macro economic data. There were flaws in
that work but I think it was a good beginning.

I proposed some potential input functions and reference signals (I
generically called inner standards) but these have been shot down.

So now what???

I like my approach (of course), which is described in some material at
Economics Research. I think I posted this
before but I guess it didn't make much of an impression. It never
does, which is why I got out of the economics biz and back into the
research methodology biz. There's not much interest in the latter
either but at least I have the credentials for it;-)

Best

Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2010.08.14.1524 MDT)]

Frank Lenk (2010.08.12.1257 CDT) --

At the Manchester meeting, our sociologist Kent Mclelland presented a preliminary paper on his upcoming attempt to develop PCT models of the economy. MCCLEL@Grinnell.EDU

I don't know any of the details, but he'll be happy to tell you about them, and to hear about your project.

Best,
Bill P:>

[From Frank Lenk (2010.08.14.19.17 CDT)]

Thanks for the info, Bill. I will contact him!

Frank

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Powers
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:30 PM
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
Subject: Re: [CSGNET] Economics & PCT

[From Bill Powers (2010.08.14.1524 MDT)]

Frank Lenk (2010.08.12.1257 CDT) --

At the Manchester meeting, our sociologist Kent Mclelland presented a
preliminary paper on his upcoming attempt to develop PCT models of
the economy. MCCLEL@Grinnell.EDU

I don't know any of the details, but he'll be happy to tell you about
them, and to hear about your project.

Best,
Bill P:>

[From Rick Marken (2010.08.17.1440)]

Frank Lenk (2010.08.12.1257 CDT)--

...I just saw this article from my alma matter that seemed
to suggest that cognitive science and psychology are beginning to pay
more attention to intentions and purposes. �Thought you might enjoy it.

Rant warning: This article did not make me very happy so what follows
will be a bit of a rant. For those who don't care for rants, you
should it the delete key now.

Cognitive science and psychology have been paying attention to
intentions and purposes for years. The only problem is that they don't
know what an intention (or purpose) is (it's a controlled perceptual
variable) or what it implies about how we can understand behavior (the
only thing we can actually observe about people) given that it is
intentional and purposeful.

The study you quote treats intentions as stimuli that can cause people
to respond to the same situation in different ways: intentions can
lead (cause) people to like people who give money to help others
rather than themselves. The research is done on groups of people so
any observed relationship between perceived intentions and expressed
liking is not necessarily true of any particular individual. So there
is no causality in that sense. And, of course, if the subjects in the
experiment are themselves intentional (purposeful) agents then their
expressed liking (the dependent variable in the experiment) is a means
of compensating for the disturbance created by what they are told
about he intentions of the person giving money to some controlled
variable. So whether the subject expresses liking or not depends on
the subject's purpose, which is not only unknown but completely
ignored by the researchers.

These researchers may seem to be "paying attention to intentions and
purposes" because they say they are interested in how intentions and
purposes affect the behavior of subjects but it's clear from the
research that these researchers are completely ignoring the intentions
and purposes of the subjects themselves. Those are the intentions and
purposes to which PCT pays attention. If you point this out to these
researchers you would quickly see from their reaction why PCT has not
been of great interest to cognitive scientists and psychologists who
seem to be paying attention to intentions and purposes.

Rant off.

Best regards

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com