# Enemies

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936>\
**Category:** CSG2003\
**Created:** [December 18, 2003, 12:26am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936 "2003-12-18T00:26:59Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory4](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory4](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory4)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/21 "2003-12-18T23:34:52Z")

</div>

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.1834)]

> [From Bill Powers (2003.12.18.1610 MST)]
> 
> Martin Taylor 2003.12.18.1725 EST--
> 
> > Surely my belief about anything is a perception of the way the world  
> > works in respect of that thing? My "belief about" is anly a way of  
> > saying my "perception of the validity of", isn't it?
> 
> Thank you, Martin. You appear to agree with my definition of  
> perception:  
> anything you experience.

Which seems to leave leave unaddressed Marc's contention that some  
people experience Jews as unworthy of living.

Bruce Gregory

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no  
one was listening, everything must be said again."

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Andre Gide

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marc_Abrams1)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/22 "2003-12-18T23:42:51Z")

</div>

from [Marc Abrams (2003.12.18.1837)]

> [From Rick Marken (2003.12.18.1515)]

Excuse me, wrong choice of words. What is a reference "signal"? Not  
condition

Marc

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marken\_Richard](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/e19b73/32.png) [@Marken\_Richard](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marken_Richard)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/23 "2003-12-18T23:57:43Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2003.12.18.1555)]

Bill Powers (2003.12.18.1619 MST)--

> "Reference level" and "reference condition" have to do with controlled  
> variables: that is, the states of environmental variables that an outside  
> observer deduces are being controlled by another control system.

That's fine. I should have said that the reference condition is that state  
of an environmental (rather than a perceptual) variable that requires  
no change in the actions of the control system.

But then what term do we use to refer to the state of a perceptual variable  
that requires no change in the actions of the control system?

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> --  
> Richard S. Marken  
> MindReadings.com  
> Home: 310 474 0313  
> Cell: 310 729 1400

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marken\_Richard](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/e19b73/32.png) [@Marken\_Richard](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marken_Richard)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/24 "2003-12-18T23:59:54Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2003.12.18.1600)

Marc Abrams (2003.12.18.1837)--

> Excuse me, wrong choice of words. What is a reference "signal"? Not  
> condition

A reference signal is a variable in the control model that specifies the  
state of the perceptual signal that requires no change in the action of the  
control system.

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> ---  
> Richard S. Marken  
> MindReadings.com  
> Home: 310 474 0313  
> Cell: 310 729 1400

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marc_Abrams1)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 12:05am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/25 "2003-12-19T00:05:17Z")

</div>

from [Marc Abrams (2003.12.18.1902)]

> [From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.1834)]
> 
> \> [From Bill Powers (2003.12.18.1610 MST)]  
> \>  
> \> Martin Taylor 2003.12.18.1725 EST--  
> \>  
> \>\> Surely my belief about anything is a perception of the way the world  
> \>\> works in respect of that thing? My "belief about" is anly a way of  
> \>\> saying my "perception of the validity of", isn't it?  
> \>  
> \> Thank you, Martin. You appear to agree with my definition of  
> \> perception:  
> \> anything you experience.
> 
> Which seems to leave leave unaddressed Marc's contention that some  
> people experience Jews as unworthy of living.

How? This seems to explain it quite well from both sides of the issue. The  
perceptions need to change for \_all\_ concerned.

Marc

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory4](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory4](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory4)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 12:35am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/26 "2003-12-19T00:35:52Z")

</div>

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.1935)]

> Marc Abrams (2003.12.18.1902)
> 
> How? This seems to explain it quite well from both sides of the issue.  
> The  
> perceptions need to change for \_all\_ concerned.

Except Rick and I.

Bruce Gregory

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no  
one was listening, everything must be said again."

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Andre Gide

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marc_Abrams1)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 12:47am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/27 "2003-12-19T00:47:14Z")

</div>

from [Marc Abrams (2003.12.18.1915)]

> [From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.1935)]

> Except Rick and I.

🙂 I was talking about the Arabs & Jews. But I'll take what I can get. 🙂  
🙂

Marc

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Martin_Taylor2)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 1:08am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/28 "2003-12-19T01:08:34Z")

</div>

> [From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.1737)]
> 
> > Martin Taylor 2003.12.18.1725 EST
> > 
> > As is the perception that my hand approaches my glass distinct from  
> > my perception of my hand and of my glass.
> > 
> > Surely my belief about anything is a perception of the way the world  
> > works in respect of that thing? My "belief about" is anly a way of  
> > saying my "perception of the validity of", isn't it?
> 
> Are you agreeing with me, as I perceive, or are you disagreeing with me  
> as you seem to perceive?

I thought I was disagreeing. Did you not say, in the message to which  
I was responding, "Do you mean to say that beliefs are perceptions?  
This is not my  
experience."

I am saying that beliefs ARE perceptions.

Martin

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Martin_Taylor2)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 1:18am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/29 "2003-12-19T01:18:43Z")

</div>

> [From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.1834)]
> 
> > [From Bill Powers (2003.12.18.1610 MST)]
> > 
> > Martin Taylor 2003.12.18.1725 EST--
> > 
> > > Surely my belief about anything is a perception of the way the world  
> > > works in respect of that thing? My "belief about" is anly a way of  
> > > saying my "perception of the validity of", isn't it?
> > 
> > Thank you, Martin. You appear to agree with my definition of  
> > perception:  
> > anything you experience.
> 
> Which seems to leave leave unaddressed Marc's contention that some  
> people experience Jews as unworthy of living.

In what way does it leave that unaddressed?

There is a perception, among whose inputs are perceptions of Jews  
acting in the world, of the ways the world works, of what constitutes  
values, and so on. The nature of the perception is the worthiness of  
Jews, and the value of the perception, in the people you describe, is  
very low.

To describe that low value as "unworthy of living" implies that one  
of the inputs is another perception, relating to values of living and  
non-living objects. But all of those are perceptions, beliefs, call  
them what you will in everyday language. In PCT technical terms, they  
are perceptions.

Martin

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory4](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory4](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory4)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:29am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/30 "2003-12-19T02:29:36Z")

</div>

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.2128)]

> To describe that low value as "unworthy of living" implies that one  
> of the inputs is another perception, relating to values of living and  
> non-living objects. But all of those are perceptions, beliefs, call  
> them what you will in everyday language. In PCT technical terms, they  
> are perceptions.

O.K. I know how to aler goals in PCT technical terms. How do you alter  
perceptions in PCT technical terms?

Bruce Gregory

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no  
one was listening, everything must be said again."

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Andre Gide

> **···**
>
> On Dec 18, 2003, at 8:18 PM, Martin Taylor wrote:

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 3:27am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/31 "2003-12-19T03:27:12Z")

</div>

[From Bill Powers(2003.12.18.2001 MST)]

Rick Marken (2003.12.18.1555)--

> But then what term do we use to refer to the state of a perceptual variable  
> that requires no change in the actions of the control system?

Good point. I think I usually say that the perceptual signal (not  
perceptual variable) matches the reference signal, or that the error  
(signal) is zero. But I'm not sure -- I might have become sloppy and said  
once or twice that the perceptual signal is at its reference level. I try  
to keep signals (inside the control system) distinct from quantities  
(outside the control system), but "variable" applies anywhere, doesn't it?  
I tend to say "variable" when speaking of the environment, though.

I don't know if this term "signal" carries the right meaning for people who  
haven't been doing electronic stuff most of their lives as I have. In the  
sense I mean, there are no "signals" in the environment. Let me try to  
explain this usage.

In electronics, there are two kinds of electrical currents or voltages, and  
I don't mean positive and negative. If a wire carries enough current, or  
can supply enough power, to operate directly an electromechanical device  
like a loudspeaker or a heater or a motor, the wire is referred to as a  
"power" line. The current flowing in that line is what makes the device  
run, physically.

Some wires, however, carry voltages or currents so small that they would be  
shorted out by a wet gnat landing on the exposed wire. The power would be  
measured in milliwatts or microwatts instead of watts or kilowatts. Often  
an amplifer is required to bring the power level up to where it would be  
enough to operate even an in indicator light. The voltages and currents in  
these wires are called signals, because their function is only to carry a  
measurement, an indication of a quantity, a kind of information, about  
something. For example, a photoelectric cell generates a current  
proportional to the light intensity its cathode receives. As the light  
intensity rises and falls, this current increases and decreases. Therefore  
the number of microamperes flowing in the wire indicates the number of  
foot-candles of illumination of the photocell. Electronikers would call  
that current, probably, the "light signal." It's the signal representing  
the amount of light. We would NOT mean that the light "is a signal" that  
something has happened. We would mean that the current is an electrical  
signal indicating the amount of light, rather than a power transfer that is  
intended to operate a device. So you will hear electronics engineers saying  
that it's a good idea to keep signal wires separated from power wires, so  
they don't pick up interference. Signal wires carry only very small amounts  
of electrical power, and serve as indicators that something else has a  
certain magnitude.

That is why I say "perceptual signal." I mean the neural current flowing in  
an axon, which carries only the feeblest amount of energy, but serves to  
carry a measurement from one place to another in the nervous system.

I have seen remarks here and there which might indicate that someone is not  
aware of this usage, and is thinking that a signal is like the horn that  
goes off to tell golfers to seek shelter when lightning is nearby, or the  
flash of white as a mule deer flicks its tail. That's an entirely different  
usage of the word "signal" and is unconnected to the way I use it in PCT.

Best,

Bill P.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marc_Abrams1)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:00am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/32 "2003-12-19T04:00:23Z")

</div>

from [Marc Abrams (2003.12.18.2252)]

> [From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.2128)]

> O.K. I know how to aler goals in PCT technical terms. How do you alter  
> perceptions in PCT technical terms?

By altering the inputs, either from memory or the environment. But since  
memory is not currently a separate entity and is not modeled as such in PCT,  
I would simply say a change in the input function. That is, a change in what  
you perceive.

Marc

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Martin_Taylor2)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:11am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/33 "2003-12-19T05:11:14Z")

</div>

[Martin Taylor 2003.12.19.0009 EST]

> [From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.2128)]
> 
> > To describe that low value as "unworthy of living" implies that one  
> > of the inputs is another perception, relating to values of living and  
> > non-living objects. But all of those are perceptions, beliefs, call  
> > them what you will in everyday language. In PCT technical terms, they  
> > are perceptions.
> 
> O.K. I know how to aler goals in PCT technical terms. How do you alter  
> perceptions in PCT technical terms?

You see something different. Move your eyes. Wait. Listen.

All of those work.

If you are talking about a belief, maybe you observe something that  
is an input into the function that defines the nature of the belief.

Martin

> **···**
>
> > On Dec 18, 2003, at 8:18 PM, Martin Taylor wrote:

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Martin_Taylor2)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:14am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/34 "2003-12-19T05:14:09Z")

</div>

[Martin Taylor 2003.12.19.0013]

> From [Marc Abrams (2003.12.18.2252)]
> 
> > [From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.2128)]
> 
> > O.K. I know how to aler goals in PCT technical terms. How do you alter  
> > perceptions in PCT technical terms?
> 
> By altering the inputs, either from memory or the environment.

Right.

> But since  
> memory is not currently a separate entity and is not modeled as such in PCT,  
> I would simply say a change in the input function.

That's a change, not in the perception, but in the nature of the perception.

Martin

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:19am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/35 "2003-12-19T05:19:44Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2003.12.18.2120)]

> Marc Abrams (2003.12.18.2252)--

> > Bruce Gregory (2003.12.18.2128)--
> 
> > O.K. I know how to aler goals in PCT technical terms. How do you alter  
> > perceptions in PCT technical terms?
> 
> By altering the inputs, either from memory or the environment.

I think I could understand this better if you could suggest a  
demonstration of this phenomenon.

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> ---  
> Richard S. Marken  
> marken@mindreadings.com  
> Home 310 474-0313  
> Cell 310 729-1400

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bill\_Williams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/73ab20/32.png) [@Bill\_Williams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Williams1)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:56am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/36 "2003-12-19T05:56:56Z")

</div>

[From Bill Williams 18 December 2003 11:30 PM CST]

Marc,

from [Marc Abrams (2003.12.18.1158)]

[From Bill Williams 17 December 2003 11:11 PM CST]

> The Islamic fundamentalist I've been talking to claims that the Koran

strictly regulates the treatment of \>unbelievers, and "people of the book."  
According to him a Christian or Jew can live in an Islamic society live well

> and expect to be treated respectfully. As I understand it the treatment

accorded unbelievers is different that that \>which regulates the status of  
"people of the book." And, there is no question that to be a full  
participant in an \>Islamic society that you must be a believer in "the one  
true God." However, it wouldn't surprize me if there were \>Islamic sects in  
which outsiders are treated poorly.

Bill, this really has nothing to do with your thread, but I think from an  
historical perspective it's nice to hear and know different views.  
Throughout history, Jews have generally lived quite nicely and well among  
muslims, as eveidenced by the number of Jews living in "arab" countries  
\_prior\_ to the break up of the Ottoman Empire. Of course much had to do with  
the feelings of the reigning Caliph (A Caliph being similair in stature to  
that of the Pope) and his views at any given point in time, but overall  
things were not horrible. It wasn't until after the First World War and the  
break-up of the Ottoman Empire, the end of the Caliph's, and the begginings  
of Arab nationalism did the trouble really begin in the middle east. It was  
no coincidence that the middle east provided Hitler with a tremendous amount  
of support. The Jews were and continue to be a scapegoats for much hate.  
Unfortunately, being an anti-zionist is a pc way of being anti-semetic. If  
you know your history you could not possibly think of Israel as an  
illegitmate state, without thinking the same thing about \_EVERY\_ other  
country in the middle east, after all, \_EVERY\_ country there was a  
\_POLITICALLY\_ constructed entity of the \_20TH\_ century, except for Egypt.

I may not have made it clear when I reported the Arab student's perception concerning the status of Israel, that I \_did not\_ share his view of the situation. I think that I may \_understand\_ his view to some extent, but that is a different matter. Sorry for the confusion. I think it is well to keep in mind all that you say above.

Ask your friend about Dhimmi's. Ask your friend about whether a Jew who  
witnessed a murder can testify in court against a muslim accused of that  
murder? Ask your friend if Jews are allowed to enter Saudi Arabia. Ask your  
friend about the tolerance Saudi's have for Christians practicing there  
faith in public in Saudi Arabia.

You keep referring to this guy as "my friend." I don't think of him as "my friend." That isn't at all what is involved. We have very very different views concerning the world, lets refer to him as my "arab coversationalist." And, we do have some extremely interesting conversations. One of the topics has been the problem presented by the state of Saudi society. There are differences between the various Arab cultures, some deep divisions that may not be evident if you have not studied the questions involved closely or known Arabs on a reasonably familiar basis. I'm only superfically informed as a result of a casual interest and because I am in contact with Arab students.

I am not passing judgement on any of the persons or the cultures either for that matter, that are involved in the conflict. I'm playing in a trival way with being an amatuer cultural anthropologist surveying an exotic struggle. I am not so much interested in the outcome of the on going conflicts between Christian, Arab, and Jews as I am in what it discloses about how people behave when systems level constructs are disturbed. I don't find the resulting behaviors are all that reassuring.

> I've found it intresting talking to this Islamic fellow. Sometimes

"interesting" isn't quite the right word for it, \>"stunned" is closer to the  
effect upon me of some extra-ordinarily candid disclosures. Not any more  
stunning, I will \>say, than the effect of realizing that people I thought  
were quite genuine Christian believers were also racists of \>deep  
conviction.

Bill, It \_always\_ takes two to tango.

People keep saying this, but I don't remember having signed any dance cards.

And, despite my cordial conversations with Arab students, I'm not an anti-Zionist. I am quite sure that I could live a better life in Israel than I could in an Islamic society.

Bill Williams

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marc_Abrams1)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 6:28am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/37 "2003-12-19T06:28:53Z")

</div>

from [Marc Abrams (2003.12.19.0122)]

> [From Rick Marken (2003.12.18.2120)]

> I think I could understand this better if you could suggest a  
> demonstration of this phenomenon.

I heartily agree. As I said in an earlier post, I'm not prepared yet to go  
'public'. Bill was nice enough to suggest an outline I should follow if I  
wanted serious consideration to be given to my ideas, I agree completely,  
and I'm currently working on it. I don't want to post a part of it because  
everything is very much entwined and I am not prepared to cover all the  
bases yet, so please have some patience. Maybe Martin or Bill can come up  
with something you can sink your teeth into right now. I can't. I can only  
give you words.

Sorry,

Marc

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marc_Abrams1)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 7:09am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/38 "2003-12-19T07:09:53Z")

</div>

from [Marc Abrams (2003.12.19.0131)]

[From Bill Williams 18 December 2003 11:30 PM CST]

Ask your friend about Dhimmi's. Ask your friend about whether a Jew who  
witnessed a murder can testify in court against a muslim accused of that  
murder? Ask your friend if Jews are allowed to enter Saudi Arabia. Ask your  
friend about the tolerance Saudi's have for Christians practicing there  
faith in public in Saudi Arabia.

You keep referring to this guy as "my friend." I don't think of him as "my  
friend."

Sorry, It's just a lot shorter to say then the  
Arab-person-you-happen-to-know. 🙂 I didn't mean that you were drinking  
buddies.

That isn't at all what is involved. We have very very different views  
concerning the world, lets refer to him as my "arab coversationalist."

How about AC. 🙂

And, we do have some extremely interesting conversations. One of the topics  
has been the problem presented by the state of Saudi society. There are  
differences between the various Arab cultures, some deep divisions that may  
not be evident if you have not studied the questions involved closely or  
known Arabs on a reasonably familiar basis. I'm only superfically informed  
as a result of a casual interest and because I am in contact with Arab  
students.

\_THIS\_ has been the saving grace for Israel actually. The division amongst  
the Arab nationalists (Baath Party types, Egypt, Syria, & until recently  
Iraq) and Islamist's (Saudi Arabia). Many people don't remember the civial  
war in Jordan in the '70's, when Arafat was thrown into the West Bank after  
his defeat. Jordon was only to happy to give up the West bank to Israel when  
it lost the last war. The same with Egypt and the Gaza. See if either one of  
them want their territories back, because that's who it belongs to, \_NOT\_  
the 'Palestenians' (whoever they are). You want to end the 'Palestenian'  
problem, give both area's back to their respective countries. In 1948 the  
'Palestenians walked away from a UN sanctioned partition because they  
believed the combined Arab armies would swiftly defeat the new country of  
Israel. They gambled and lost. They have lost in four more subsequent  
attempts to destroy Israel. Two years ago Arafat walked away from a peace  
treaty at Camp David, without an explanation or a counter-offer. Instead he  
started another war (infitadah?). For this he is hailed as a great hero.  
PLeeeeeeze, give me abreak.

> I am not passing judgement on any of the persons or the cultures either for

that matter, that are involved in the \>conflict. I'm playing in a trival way  
with being an amatuer cultural anthropologist surveying an exotic struggle.  
I \>am not so much interested in the outcome of the on going conflicts  
between Christian, Arab, and Jews as I am in \>what it discloses about how  
people behave when systems level constructs are disturbed. I don't find the  
resulting behaviors \>are all that reassuring.

Bill, you don't have to 'pass' judgement. You think the middle east is bad?  
What about the slavery going on in Africa today? What about Northern  
Ireland? The \_history\_ of mankind is littered with this stuff. Speak to  
Martin Taylor about this. This isn't something new to the 21st century.  
Cultural conflicts are the \_norm\_ not the exception and it's all about the  
perceptions people have, perceptions that are most likely a combination of  
imagination, distortions, and ignorance with very little 'real' data to  
confuse anyone with.

And, despite my cordial conversations with Arab students, I'm not an  
anti-Zionist. I am quite sure that I could live a better life in Israel than  
I could in an Islamic society.

The average Arab certainly could as well, and I hope you did not think I was  
inferring you were anti-Semitic. Not even close, Please ask AC about the  
concept of Dhimmi's. I'm curious to hear what he has to say about it.

Marc

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bill\_Williams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/73ab20/32.png) [@Bill\_Williams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Williams1)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:15am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/39 "2003-12-19T08:15:07Z")

</div>

[From Bill Williams 19 December 2003 2:15 AM CST]

Marc Abrams (2003.12.19.0131)] says,

Please ask AC about the concept of Dhimmi's. I'm curious to hear what he has to say about it.

I plan to approach this a bit cautiously. I am going to look into it myself, before tossing what might be a bomb into what has been a long standing dialog concerning Islam, Christianity and recent events.

Bill Williams

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Marc\_Abrams1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marc_Abrams1)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:23am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/enemies/3936/40 "2003-12-19T08:23:08Z")

</div>

from [Marc Abrams (2003.12.19.0321)]

[From Bill Williams 19 December 2003 2:15 AM CST]

Marc Abrams (2003.12.19.0131)] says,

Please ask AC about the concept of Dhimmi's. I'm curious to hear what he has  
to say about it.

> I plan to approach this a bit cautiously. I am going to look into it

myself, before tossing what might be a bomb into \>what has been a long  
standing dialog concerning Islam, Christianity and recent events.

Are you familiar with the concept? If so what do you know about it?

Marc

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