Enemy of the people

[From Oded Maler (980704)]

Rick Marken (980703.2140)]

I think, for
example, the idea that the kids disrupt because they are unable
to imagine the consequences of their actions is not only wrong
from a PCT perspective but it's the very kind of misconception
about human nature that PCT is trying to dispell in the hopes
of suggesting more civil ways for people to interact.

Sorry? What is so wrong with this idea? This sounds like a problem in
some higher-level control system (sequences, programs, and other
constructs such as objects and consciousness which can not be
realized in Excel 7.9 nor in the current version of PCT) to me.

--Oded

[From Bill Powers (980704.0404 MDT)]

Oded Maler (980704)--

]

Rick Marken (980703.2140)]

I think, for
example, the idea that the kids disrupt because they are unable
to imagine the consequences of their actions is not only wrong
from a PCT perspective but it's the very kind of misconception
about human nature that PCT is trying to dispell in the hopes
of suggesting more civil ways for people to interact.

Oded:

Sorry? What is so wrong with this idea? This sounds like a problem in
some higher-level control system (sequences, programs, and other
constructs such as objects and consciousness which can not be
realized in Excel 7.9 nor in the current version of PCT) to me.

What's wrong with it is that if kids were really unable to imagine the
consequences of their actions they wouldn't be able to walk from one
classroom to another. They would never put money in a Coke machine, or flip
the "on" switch of a boom box, or ... you get the idea, I hope.

The problem is not that the kids have something missing in their brains;
it's that they lack certain experiences and have different concerns from
those of the adults around them. The consequences they visualise are the
ones that matter to them, not to the adults. Children who are
countercontrolling their teachers are perfectly aware of the consequences
of their behavior; that's why they're behaving as they do. What really
gives some of them deep satisfaction is to see an adult going all ugly and
red in the face and screaming "Get a haircut!"

Best,

Bill P.

[From Oded Maler (980704)-II]

Bill Powers (980704.0404 MDT)

Oded:

Sorry? What is so wrong with this idea? This sounds like a problem in
some higher-level control system (sequences, programs, and other
constructs such as objects and consciousness which can not be
realized in Excel 7.9 nor in the current version of PCT) to me.

What's wrong with it is that if kids were really unable to imagine the
consequences of their actions they wouldn't be able to walk from one
classroom to another. They would never put money in a Coke machine, or flip
the "on" switch of a boom box, or ... you get the idea, I hope.

I partially agree, but it is also a matter of time- and space-scales.
I can predict what sequence of micro-actions will lead me to perform
one macro-action within some minutes, but fail to predict the effect
of this macro-action on my life for a scale of months and years.

--Oded