exponential force problem solved

[From Bill Powers (2000.05.06.1619 MDT)]

Isaac thought our discussions of muscle properties were on CSGnet (it was
actually a limited-circulation post), and after thinking it over, I decided
what the heck, we modelers have just as much right to CSGnet as people who
want to talk about cooperation, and nobody is required to comment on things
they aren't interested in, so why not?

The problem to which I refer below is an apparent exponential dependence of
muscle force on stretch. When I tried to model it, I got an awful result,
with lots of lag and hardly any loop gain before oscillations set in. I've
been beating my brains out over an article by Shadmere, R. and Arbib, M. A.
(1992) in Biological Cybernetics,( a mathematical analysis of
force-stiffness characteristics of muscles, Biol Cybern _66_, 463-477, if
anyone wants to look it up). Very complicated and detailed, and in places
beyond my bandwidth. But further study has shown me that I used the
equations the wrong way. I haven't got the final answer yet, but I can see
the way now...

···

==========================================================================

Hi all. I think the solution is at hand. The problem is that the way
stiffness is tested is not the appropriate way. At least it completely
misled me. As stiffness increases, the force generated by a standard amount
of stretch increases. But this assumes that the external agent doing the
stretching simply alters the length of the muscle by a preset amount no
matter how much (or how little) resistance the muscle offers. So of course
as the muscle gets stiffer, the external agent simply increases the applied
force as much as necessary to get the same amount of stretch. That gives
the exponentially increasing curve of force as a function of stretch.
However, stretch does not cause force; instead, force causes stretch.

When a muscle contracts or when loads are applied to a limb, what is
applied is a force, not a fixed increment of muscle length. As the average
force increases, the muscle gets stiffer, and the result is to _decrease_
the amount of stretch for a given change in force. A given increment in
force is transmitted to the attachments through the nonlinear spring
through smaller and smaller increments in the length of the muscle as the
force increases. The coupling of force to the attachments gets tighter.

External loads on a limb are generally applied as forces, not as fixed
displacements. The directly appropriate way to measure muscle stiffness
would be to vary the stretching _force_ and measure the amount of
displacement that results. Then we would see how much displacement of a
limb is caused by an applied force, rather than how much force must be
applied to produce a fixed displacement. Of course the appropriate term
would then be "compliance," the reciprocal of stiffness. Compliance
decreases as the level of force increases. The result is simply the same as
the authors' plot of fig. 7, but turned on its side and then flipped left
for right.

The Golgi tendon receptors measure the mechanical stretching of the tendon,
or the capsule in the tendon. If the tendon itself is a linear spring at
the place where the Golgi receptors are, then it measures directly the
force due to muscle contraction (muscle length is irrelevant). If the
tendon shares the same nonlinear character as the muscle's overall series
elastic component, then the Golgi signal would indicate the log of applied
force. Either way, this is a heck of a lot better than what I had assumed
before, that the Golgi signal was an exponentially increasing function of
the muscle tension.

I think I can come up with an appropriate model now. A few more days...

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2000.05.07.0920)]

Bill Powers (2000.05.06.1619 MDT)--

we modelers have just as much right to CSGnet as people who
want to talk about cooperation

And we lesser, cooperation-talking mortals would love to be
able to voyeuristically share in the investigations of you
"modelers". (How many of you are there, by the way? Or have
you got a modeling mouse in your pocket? :wink:

The problem to which I refer below is an apparent exponential
dependence of muscle force on stretch.

Are you talking about muscles as "meat", detached from the
nervous system? Or are these muscles part of a nervous system
control loop?

The directly appropriate way to measure muscle stiffness
would be to vary the stretching _force_ and measure the
amount of displacement that results.

Can I do this experiment with the steak (muscle) I'm having
for dinner tonight (defrosted, of course) or should the steak
still be part of the cow (still defrosted, of course)?

The Golgi tendon receptors measure the mechanical stretching
of the tendon, or the capsule in the tendon...

It sounds like the force-displacement relationship you are
talking about occurs for a muscle that is part of closed
loop control system. Is that right?

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

[From Bill Powers (2000.05.07.1347 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2000.05.07.0920)--

And we lesser, cooperation-talking mortals would love to be
able to voyeuristically share in the investigations of you
"modelers". (How many of you are there, by the way? Or have
you got a modeling mouse in your pocket? :wink:

The original conversation, off-net, included Richard Kennaway, Isaac
Kurtzer, and occasionally you.

The problem to which I refer below is an apparent exponential
dependence of muscle force on stretch.

Are you talking about muscles as "meat", detached from the
nervous system? Or are these muscles part of a nervous system
control loop?

Experiments have been done both ways. In the measurement of muscle
stiffness shown in Shadmehr & Arbib (1992) Fig. 6, the soleus nerve
(innervating the soleus muscle) of a live frog was cut and the free end was
stimulated to varying degrees, while the resistance to small changes in
length of the muscle was measured: delta-force/delta-length = stiffness.
This is an open-loop measurement, useful for constructing the closed-loop
model.

In other experiments, muscles are removed from the organism and kept in a
bath of nutrients. This can be done for several days, apparently.
Preparations are kept at 0 to 5 degrees C, which probably slows things down
a lot. Electrical stimulation of the muscle is done by an array of wires
that enter all along the muscle's length. A variable-frequency signal is used.

Can I do this experiment with the steak (muscle) I'm having
for dinner tonight (defrosted, of course)... ?

Probably not. You need a bath containing ATP and other stuff, and the
muscle must still be alive -- i.e., sensitive to electrical stimulation.
Passive stretch experiments may not require such fresh meat.

The Golgi tendon receptors measure the mechanical stretching
of the tendon, or the capsule in the tendon...

It sounds like the force-displacement relationship you are
talking about occurs for a muscle that is part of closed
loop control system. Is that right?

In the intact organism, yes. What I'm investigating right now is just the
tendon reflex. When this loop is set up correctly, I'll go on to the
stretch reflexes (static and dynamic). I'm trying to set up a model that
physiologists might possibly accept, instead of just a model that works.
This means looking at a lot of details I never bothered with in developing
the Little Man.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2000.05.08.0820)]

Bill Powers --

we modelers have just as much right to CSGnet as people who
want to talk about cooperation

Me:

And we lesser, cooperation-talking mortals would love to be
able to voyeuristically share in the investigations of you
"modelers".

Bill Powers (2000.05.07.1347 MDT)--

The original conversation, off-net, included Richard Kennaway,
Isaac Kurtzer, and occasionally you.

Yes. Sorry about the "cooperation-talking mortals" line. But
your "we modelers have as much right to CSGnet as people who
want to talk about cooperation" sounded a tad condescending
when I first read it. I think it's possible to talk about
anything, cooperation included, in the context of working PCT
models. Also, I didn't see the off-net posts that preceded
your comments; they went to my mailbox at work so I just saw
them this morning. So I didn't have the right context in which
to read your post. So I can see that you were not being
condescending at all; just frustrated with the fact that so
little of the discussion on CSGnet is based on research and/or
modeling.

But I think it's perfectly possible to carry on modeling-based
discussions on CSGnet. The people who can follow and/or contribute
to these discussions will do so; those who can only contribute
philosophy or jibes can be ignored. I think it would be great if
you, Issac and Richard could continue the discussion of muscle
modeling on CSGnet; after 10 years of CSGnet I think we know how
to keep the science afloat in these conversations while letting
the philosophy sink back to the bottom of the barrel from whence
it burbled up;-)

By the way, I am still working on the economics modeling. I have
now got a model of the banking system that produces currency (money
in circulation) by loaning it out against deposits. The model
contains only one control system; the "loan officer" system that
keeps the amount loaned out less (by the "reserve requirement")
than the amount on deposit. It works like a charm.

Best

Rick

···

---
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates mailto: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken

[From Bruce Gregory (2000.05.08.1145)]

Rick Marken (2000.05.08.0820)

But I think it's perfectly possible to carry on modeling-based
discussions on CSGnet. The people who can follow and/or contribute
to these discussions will do so; those who can only contribute
philosophy or jibes can be ignored.

No condescension here....

BG

[From Bill Powers (2000.05.08.1000 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2000.05.08.0820)--

we modelers have just as much right to CSGnet as people who
want to talk about cooperation

... your "we modelers have as much right to CSGnet as people who
want to talk about cooperation" sounded a tad condescending
when I first read it.

Not meant that way. But people who want to talk about technical stuff have
been reprimanded for elitism or something, so we've tended to hold our more
technical discussions by direct mail, thinking "Oh, nobody will be
interested in this." Of course this means that the technical discussions,
the only ones of any potentially lasting interest (can't resist the
needle), are not archived under CSGnet. That's probably a big mistake.

By the way, I am still working on the economics modeling. I have
now got a model of the banking system that produces currency (money
in circulation) by loaning it out against deposits. The model
contains only one control system; the "loan officer" system that
keeps the amount loaned out less (by the "reserve requirement")
than the amount on deposit. It works like a charm.

Excellent. Next question: what determines how many loans are needed in a
given time?

Best,

Bill P.