format; meeting;Test;misc

[From Bill Powers (950530.0945 MDT)]

I think I have resolved the problem with the skipped lines in my
posts. Let me know (thanks, Bill Leach).

···

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Luke Aitken --

You have already registered and sent in your deposit. Guess you
forgot. Mary's email address is the same as mine:
powers_w@fortlewis.edu. That's a change from our previous
address.

The meeting dates are July 19 - July 23. The first day is arrival
day with an evening meeting to get organized. The last day is
departure day.
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Bruce Abbott (950529.1955 EST) --

     By the way, did you read Bill Powers' nifty little
     description of hummingbird behavior? On second thought, you
     wouldn't find it of interest--no application of the TEST and
     all that, just description from the point of view of the
     external observer, with a little speculation about possible
     controlled variables thrown in.

I think that my informal presentation may have disguised the Test
too well. The controlled variables I had in mind were the
distance of the bird's head from the feeder and the orientation
of the head relative to a feeding port. The disturbances were the
swinging of the feeder, the twisting oscillations of the feeder,
and the wind velocity. I observed that the controlled variables
(during feeding) remained essentially constant, while the
expected effects would be a variation in both the distance and
the orientation (expected, that is, under the hypothesis of no
control, so that the effects of the disturbances would not be
opposed by the bird's actions).

A similar description of the fly's landing would have to include
descriptions of disturbances which, unopposed, would have
predictable effects on the observed landing pattern. To
demonstrate control of any particular variable in that pattern,
we would have to show that for each disturbance, the fly altered
its behavior in such a way that the controlled variable was
immediately restored to its former state, or prevented from
changing away from that state.

This is what was missing from the Nachitgall description of the
fly's landing pattern. The mere repetition of the pattern is not
sufficient to demonstrate control. We must show that disturbances
tending to change the pattern are resisted.

Suppose we set up a flow of air parallel to the surface on which
the fly is landing. We might find (I'm guessing) that now the fly
does not orient its body at a steep angle to the surface, but
approaches at a shallower angle when flying upwind. This would
tell us that the angle of the body relative to the surface is not
a controlled variable, but is part of the variable actions used
to control some other variable. Perhaps what we would find is
that the direction of approach to the surface rather than the
angle of the body is under control. The body angle is simply
varied to keep the direction of approach the same. Of course if
you always observe without any disturbances present, you can't
tell that the body angle is not under control.

A parallel case would be observing how a boater rows across a
body of water, a lake. If we observe that the rower points the
boat toward the distant dock, we might conclude that the
direction of the bow of the boat relative to the dock is a
controlled variable. If, however, we do the same test on a river,
which disturbs the path of the boat relative to the distant dock,
we will find that the bow of the boat is aimed upstream, while
the direction of progress of the boat continues to be a straight
line toward the dock. So the direction of the bow is ruled out as
a controlled variable, and the direction of progress (or some
perception related to it) is likely to be under control.

In the Srinivasan article described by Avery Andrews, the Test
was actually applied. Various aspects of the environment were
deliberately altered, to test the idea that visual outflow was
the controlled variable and to rule out other aspects of the
perceptual situation as being stabilized against disturbances.
That is why this work was considered to be a "good PCT
experiment" even if Srinivasan didn't formalize what he was doing
in PCT terms. The lack of such disturbances was the reason that
the Nachtigall description was not considered a "good PCT
description." Nachtigall didn't describe any disturbances.
Without disturbances we can't identify controlled variables
experimentally.
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Bill Leach (950529.21:34 U.S. Eastern Time Zone) --

     I don't believe that Rick, and I certainly know that I, did
     not assume that what was quoted was ALL that exists in the
     book but _please_ both of you guys (Bill and Bruce) how
     about honoring the quite obvious intent (at least to me) of
     Rick's orginal request...

Why run this like a mid-term exam? I've been waiting for someone
to explain to Bruce why the Nachtigall description was not a good
PCT description, but as you can see, I have finally provided the
explanation myself. That would have been an easy way to avoid the
squabbles. I can only conclude that there is some other goal
involved, like showing who knows most about PCT. What a bore.
----------------------------------
Your comments re Hans' model are appreciated. Also your efforts
in looking up definitions of control. I'd like to see some more
-- and by the way, why not cite some of those horrible examples?
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Hans Blom (950530) --

I'll try out your new demo today and comment later. If you think
that "frequency makes no difference" you must have forgot a great
deal of the basic control theory you once knew, or else you're
not saying what you mean.
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Joel Judd (950530.0830 CST) --

     Rick M. and Bill P. (950529):

     > read EVERY SINGLE WORD (of the Bible)

     I have, too, and actually find it MOST relevant to PCT.
     However, since it was never intended to be a treatise on
     human psychology, maybe it shouldn't consistently be
     criticized for being a poor one. Or perhaps it should be
     read with a different purpose in mind...

I think that you and I read the Bible using different premises.
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Best to all,

Bill P.

<[Bill Leach 950530.18:38 U.S. Eastern Time Zone]

[From Bill Powers (950530.0945 MDT)]

skipped lines

none this time

Why run this like a mid-term exam? I've been waiting for someone
to explain to Bruce why the Nachtigall description was not a good
PCT description, but as you can see, I have finally provided ...

As far as this fellow is concerned, I see no reason why Bruce could not
do a good job of that himself. I don't doubt that Bruce has a "handle"
on fundamental PCT inspite of statements made occassionally that are in
error from a PCT perspective.

People such as myself really are "junior PCTers" and are prone to easily
miss our own failure to consider fundamental PCT concepts when discussing
various topics. Even you and Rick "slip" now and then but with a great
deal less frequency that the rest of us.

The number of times that I have "zeroed in" on a PCT issue in a
discussion (usually almost proud as punch) only to then read a concise
and even elegant posting (usually by you) that makes it obvious that I
missed the _most_ important concept entirely, is close to depressing.

I am now absolutely convinced that a year or two of a serious attempt to
study and understand PCT just _might_ be sufficient to begin to realize
just how much one does not understand.

I can only conclude that there is some other goal involved, like showing
who knows most about PCT. What a bore.

Maybe, but Bruce's latest comments upon what might constitute PCT
research was not only interesting but also a key to what might have been
a part of the problem.

I know that Bruce, like myself, often states things in a manner that is
not consistant with PCT. Some of this might be due to misunderstanding
but can equally be caused just by not analyzing one's own thought
adequately before expressing them.

For me, I find at least now, that I often have to rewrite a paragraph
that is supposed to present an idea consistant with PCT several times.
Even then, quite often when I read my own message sent out by the
listserver, I discover that I still feel that the presentation was poorly
done.

I do need to go back over some of my earlier postings though from Dag's
disks as I am quite certain that reading those will make me feel much
better about the current state of affairs.

definitions

OK, I'll try a few more sources... I was looking that stuff up rather a
bit later than I had intended to stay up last night.

I will also "cite the horrible" examples but remeber that these are not
necessarily so horrible for the field in which they are intended.

Bible

I don't read the Bible much these days but have worked through it pretty
seriously in the past. There is much that must be viewed as irrational
from a PCT point of view. However, when one takes the general moral and
ethical positions that seem to be generally accepted here on CSG-L, then
a great deal of the Bible makes a lot of sense from a PCT point of view.
Indeed, I would even venture to say that some of the "guidance" for
living provided in the Bible will _only_ find scientific support in PCT.

One of my favorites is "Revenge is mine sayeth the Lord" which I take to
be "Revenge is NOT mine". And further by that then, I may seek to
correct an "injustice" or "right a wrong" but seeking to punish or "get
even" exceeds the moral limits that I accept for myself (for my OWN
mental health).

When one thinks about PCT and what it implies about us humans and then
reads I COR 13 definition of love... To behave toward each other in the
manner described in that single passage would reduce strife in the world
to next to nothing.

-bill