# Future of PCT

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/future-of-pct/4624>\
**Category:** CSG2009\
**Created:** [January 8, 2009, 3:58am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/future-of-pct/4624 "2009-01-08T03:58:44Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 7\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DagArchive](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@DagArchive](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/DagArchive)\
**Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 3:58am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/future-of-pct/4624/1 "2009-01-08T03:58:44Z")

</div>

[From Dag Forssell (2009 0107 20:00 PST)]

Greg Williams put together the CLosed Loop Journal from early 1991  
through late 1994, a total of 15 issues ranging from the first with ten  
pages through the later ones with some 80 pages each–small books  
actually.

In 2001, I reproduced six of the fifteen by running OCR, formatting in  
PageMaker and printing to pdf. Now that Bill asked me to reproduce a  
seventh, I thought at first that plain scans would do in this age of high  
bandwidth, but find that Volume 4 number 1 with its close to 80 pages  
requires 16 MB as a pdf image file. So that does not make sense to me.  
The process of recreating the issue takes a couple of days, but the  
result is clean. Here is Volume 4, number 1, recreated in Adobe InDesign  
and printed to pdf. 311 kB.

As I work with the text, I am in awe of the huge amount of work editing  
and publishing for CSG that Greg contributed.

I am working to post archives, including CSGnet and the issues of Closed  
Loop that I have already, but more issues will have to wait until all  
higher priority projects are taken care of

Best to all, Dag

[Closed Loop vol4 #1.pdf](http://discourse.iapct.org/uploads/short-url/tf33XrqVNLtpEw2fx2PkVaHFMsn.pdf) (310 KB)

> **···**
>
> At 02:59 PM 12/2/2008, Bill Powers wrote:
> 
> > [From Bill Powers  
> > (2008.12.2.1128 MST)]  
> > I have at least one reason for wishing it were 1994 again, but we are now  
> > 14 years later, and the future is looking good. While unpacking I have  
> > come across Volume 4, Number 1, of Closed Loop, Winter 1994, the first  
> > issue subtitled “Journal of Living Control Systems.” I think it  
> > is time to reconstruct some of the spirit of that issue, and the  
> > substance as well.  
> > I know that Dag Forssell has assembled all the old issues of Closed Loop,  
> > a journal started by Greg Williams with the initial title of  
> > “Continuing the Conversation” and devoted to the ideas of  
> > Gregory Bateson. In his editorial introduction to Volume 4 Number 1, Greg  
> > says  
> > \*I hope that this will signal a shift in the contents away from CSGnet  
> > conversations, toward research reports, clinical studies, and review  
> > articles. My ultimate goal is a peer-reviewed journal which includes  
> > contributions to the science of living control systems written by both  
> > Control Systems Group members and non-members.\*I, on the other hand, hope I can persuade Dag Forssell to put this  
> > particular issue into electronic form and publish it on CSGnet – or  
> > perhaps to put it into his Readings volume so it can be retrieved from  
> > his web site. I hope everyone will read it. It is inspirational reading  
> > for me partly because I am cheered up when I see nice things being said  
> > about me, but mostly because of the growing realization, as I read it for  
> > the first time in over a decade, that some people of extraordinary  
> > quality were members of the CSG nine years after its founding. We have  
> > become too used to each other, like brothers and sisters, and it has  
> > become commonplace to expect intelligence, articulate communication,  
> > creativity, and a deep grasp of PCT from those we encounter here. Reading  
> > these words from the past reminded me of what we really have – not only  
> > a new idea to develop and communicate, but people who are brave enough  
> > and good enough at what they do to take on the task.
> > 
> > My new book is being printed now, and when the proofs pass Alice’s  
> > inspection (in one or two days if all goes well) it will be announced to  
> > Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and elsewhere. Thanks to Warren Mansell, who  
> > first recommended a book review to Nature and then ended up being  
> > asked to write it himself, the review appeared on schedule (13 November  
> > 2008). Scientific American is discussing the possibility of an article on  
> > PCT – their idea, as they were initially prodded (by Warren, again) only  
> > to do a review. Who knows what is going to happen in 2009, especially  
> > with Warren Mansell whipping up interest in the UK and Tim Carey doing  
> > the same in Australia – and the Chinese waiting to be invited to  
> > translate and publish the Chinese edition, and Dag Forssell unveiling his  
> > enormous contribution toward providing resources on the Web? I think it  
> > will be a good idea to bet on a turning of the tide.
> > 
> > Lloyd Klinedinst and Fred Good have had ideas about starting a journal,  
> > and Wolfgang Zocher actually began one on the Web, complete with ISBN  
> > number. I don’t know what the political thing to do here is, but I  
> > suggest that all these parties, Forssell, Williams, Klinedinst and Good,  
> > and Zocher, get in touch with each other. Wolfgang is ill; I don’t know  
> > if he can participate but he should be asked. We need an editor or  
> > coeditors, a volunteer staff to answer mail, and whatever else the  
> > founders decree.
> > 
> > Previous journal attempts have failed for lack of submitted materials.  
> > That will probably change next year, and I think we should be ready.  
> > There should be a journal with authoritative peer reviewers available to  
> > it for people exploring, testing, and applying PCT. It would be a shame  
> > if the only place where a paper on perceptual control could be sent were  
> > a conventional journal of psychology, where the reviewers all think that  
> > negative feedback means adverse criticism. Apologies, by the way, if all  
> > this has already been said by Lloyd and Fred.
> > 
> > Perhaps what I hope most earnestly and sadly is that all those who have  
> > ceased to participate in the CSG will, where possible, read this issue  
> > and recall who the others in it were before all the bad things happened,  
> > how we were all pursuing the bright shining Grail, and fashioning it at  
> > the same time. Our differences with each other are as nothing compared  
> > with the difference our work has yet to make in the world. Let’s declare  
> > that the past is gone, and start work on the future.
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> > Bill P.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Gary\_Padover](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gary\_Padover](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Gary_Padover)\
**Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 5:04am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/future-of-pct/4624/2 "2009-01-08T05:04:06Z")

</div>

dag,

thanks for the attachment. i have been eager to gain a firmer grasp of the early conceptualizations of pct and have been plodding my way through a greater understanding of it; particularly its application to family therapy, since dr. david goldstein, my esteemed colleague, had initially shared pct with me over a little more than a decade ago.

since, i have benefitted from an ongoing and greater awareness of pct and its applications to psychotherapy, as well as the rewards (excuse my behavioral reference) of getting to know the csgnet group.

respectfully,

dr. gary padover

> **···**
>
> * * *
> 
> New year…new news. Be the first to know what is making [headlines](http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026).

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Dick\_Robertson](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Dick\_Robertson](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Dick_Robertson)\
**Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/future-of-pct/4624/3 "2009-01-09T22:36:16Z")

</div>

[From Dick Robertson (2009.01.09.1630CDT0]

Dag,

A great enterprise. It is heartwarming to see how Bill’s early struggles have produced the beginnings of a true revolution in the life sciences–and the troop now working on the various aspects of research and application. Even though we might always wish more psychologists had really taken the time to see what is there, it’s now clear that PCT can only grow in recognition in the future.

And amen to Bill’s reply here.

Best,

Dick R

> **···**
>
> ----- Original Message -----  
> From: Dag Forssell [csgarchive@PCTRESOURCES.COM](mailto:csgarchive@PCTRESOURCES.COM)  
> Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009 10:03 pm  
> Subject: Re: Future of PCT  
> To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > [From Dag Forssell (2009 0107 20:00 PST)]
> > 
> > Greg Williams put together the CLosed Loop Journal from early 1991  
> > through late 1994, a total of 15 issues ranging from the first with ten  
> > pages through the later ones with some 80 pages each–small books  
> > actually.
> > 
> > In 2001, I reproduced six of the fifteen by running OCR, formatting in  
> > PageMaker and printing to pdf. Now that Bill asked me to reproduce a  
> > seventh, I thought at first that plain scans would do in this age of high  
> > bandwidth, but find that Volume 4 number 1 with its close to 80 pages  
> > requires 16 MB as a pdf image file. So that does not make sense to me.  
> > The process of recreating the issue takes a couple of days, but the  
> > result is clean. Here is Volume 4, number 1, recreated in Adobe InDesign  
> > and printed to pdf. 311 kB.
> > 
> > As I work with the text, I am in awe of the huge amount of work editing  
> > and publishing for CSG that Greg contributed.
> > 
> > I am working to post archives, including CSGnet and the issues of Closed  
> > Loop that I have already, but more issues will have to wait until all  
> > higher priority projects are taken care of
> > 
> > Best to all, Dag
> > 
> > At 02:59 PM 12/2/2008, Bill Powers wrote:
> 
> > [From Bill Powers
> > 
> > > (2008.12.2.1128 MST)]
> > > 
> > > I have at least one reason for wishing it were 1994 again, but we are now  
> > > 14 years later, and the future is looking good. While unpacking I have  
> > > come across Volume 4, Number 1, of Closed Loop, Winter 1994, the first  
> > > issue subtitled “Journal of Living Control Systems.” I think it  
> > > is time to reconstruct some of the spirit of that issue, and the  
> > > substance as well.
> > > 
> > > I know that Dag Forssell has assembled all the old issues of Closed Loop,  
> > > a journal started by Greg Williams with the initial title of  
> > > “Continuing the Conversation” and devoted to the ideas of  
> > > Gregory Bateson. In his editorial introduction to Volume 4 Number 1, Greg  
> > > says
> > > 
> > > \*I hope that this will signal a shift in the contents away from CSGnet  
> > > conversations, toward research reports, clinical studies, and review  
> > > articles. My ultimate goal is a peer-reviewed journal which includes  
> > > contributions to the science of living control systems written by both  
> > > Control Systems Group members and non-members.
> > > 
> > > - I, on the other hand, hope I can persuade Dag Forssell to put this  
> > > particular issue into electronic form and publish it on CSGnet – or  
> > > perhaps to put it into his Readings volume so it can be retrieved from  
> > > his web site. I hope everyone will read it. It is inspirational reading  
> > > for me partly because I am cheered up when I see nice things being said  
> > > about me, but mostly because of the growing realization, as I read it for  
> > > the first time in over a decade, that some people of extraordinary  
> > > quality were members of the CSG nine years after its founding. We have  
> > > become too used to each other, like brothers and sisters, and it has  
> > > become commonplace to expect intelligence, articulate communication,  
> > > creativity, and a deep grasp of PCT from those we encounter here. Reading  
> > > these words from the past reminded me of what we really have – not only  
> > > a new idea to develop and communicate, but people who are brave enough  
> > > and good enough at what they do to take on the task.
> > > 
> > > My new book is being printed now, and when the proofs pass Alice’s  
> > > inspection (in one or two days if all goes well) it will be announced to  
> > > Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and elsewhere. Thanks to Warren Mansell, who  
> > > first recommended a book review to Nature and then ended up being  
> > > asked to write it himself, the review appeared on schedule (13 November  
> > > 2008). Scientific American is discussing the possibility of an article on  
> > > PCT – their idea, as they were initially prodded (by Warren, again) only  
> > > to do a review. Who knows what is going to happen in 2009, especially  
> > > with Warren Mansell whipping up interest in the UK and Tim Carey doing  
> > > the same in Australia – and the Chinese waiting to be invited to  
> > > translate and publish the Chinese edition, and Dag Forssell unveiling his  
> > > enormous contribution toward providing resources on the Web? I think it  
> > > will be a good idea to bet on a turning of the tide.
> > > 
> > > Lloyd Klinedinst and Fred Good have had ideas about starting a journal,  
> > > and Wolfgang Zocher actually began one on the Web, complete with ISBN  
> > > number. I don’t know what the political thing to do here is, but I  
> > > suggest that all these parties, Forssell, Williams, Klinedinst and Good,  
> > > and Zocher, get in touch with each other. Wolfgang is ill; I don’t know  
> > > if he can participate but he should be asked. We need an editor or  
> > > coeditors, a volunteer staff to answer mail, and whatever else the  
> > > founders decree.
> > > 
> > > Previous journal attempts have failed for lack of submitted materials.  
> > > That will probably change next year, and I think we should be ready.  
> > > There should be a journal with authoritative peer reviewers available to  
> > > it for people exploring, testing, and applying PCT. It would be a shame  
> > > if the only place where a paper on perceptual control could be sent were  
> > > a conventional journal of psychology, where the reviewers all think that  
> > > negative feedback means adverse criticism. Apologies, by the way, if all  
> > > this has already been said by Lloyd and Fred.
> > > 
> > > Perhaps what I hope most earnestly and sadly is that all those who have  
> > > ceased to participate in the CSG will, where possible, read this issue  
> > > and recall who the others in it were before all the bad things happened,  
> > > how we were all pursuing the bright shining Grail, and fashioning it at  
> > > the same time. Our differences with each other are as nothing compared  
> > > with the difference our work has yet to make in the world. Let’s declare  
> > > that the past is gone, and start work on the future.
> > > 
> > > Best,
> > > 
> > > Bill P.
> 
> >

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers1)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/future-of-pct/4624/4 "2008-12-02T22:59:00Z")

</div>

[From Bill Powers (2008.12.2.1128 MST)]  
I have at least one reason for wishing it were 1994 again, but we are now  
14 years later, and the future is looking good. While unpacking I have  
come across Volume 4, Number 1, of Closed Loop, Winter 1994, the first  
issue subtitled “Journal of Living Control Systems.” I think it  
is time to reconstruct some of the spirit of that issue, and the  
substance as well.  
I know that Dag Forssell has assembled all the old issues of Closed Loop,  
a journal started by Greg Williams with the initial title of  
“Continuing the Conversation” and devoted to the ideas of  
Gregory Bateson. In his editorial introduction to Volume 4 Number 1, Greg  
says  
\*I hope that this will signal a shift in the contents away from CSGnet  
conversations, toward research reports, clinical studies, and review  
articles. My ultimate goal is a peer-reviewed journal which includes  
contributions to the science of living control systems written by both  
Control Systems Group members and non-members.\*I, on the other hand, hope I can persuade Dag Forssell to put this  
particular issue into electronic form and publish it on CSGnet – or  
perhaps to put it into his Readings volume so it can be retrieved from  
his web site. I hope everyone will read it. It is inspirational reading  
for me partly because I am cheered up when I see nice things being said  
about me, but mostly because of the growing realization, as I read it for  
the first time in over a decade, that some people of extraordinary  
quality were members of the CSG nine years after its founding. We have  
become too used to each other, like brothers and sisters, and it has  
become commonplace to expect intelligence, articulate communication,  
creativity, and a deep grasp of PCT from those we encounter here. Reading  
these words from the past reminded me of what we really have – not only  
a new idea to develop and communicate, but people who are brave enough  
and good enough at what they do to take on the task.

My new book is being printed now, and when the proofs pass Alice’s  
inspection (in one or two days if all goes well) it will be announced to  
Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and elsewhere. Thanks to Warren Mansell, who  
first recommended a book review to Nature and then ended up being  
asked to write it himself, the review appeared on schedule (13 November  
2008). Scientific American is discussing the possibility of an article on  
PCT – their idea, as they were initially prodded (by Warren, again) only  
to do a review. Who knows what is going to happen in 2009, especially  
with Warren Mansell whipping up interest in the UK and Tim Carey doing  
the same in Australia – and the Chinese waiting to be invited to  
translate and publish the Chinese edition, and Dag Forssell unveiling his  
enormous contribution toward providing resources on the Web? I think it  
will be a good idea to bet on a turning of the tide.

Lloyd Klinedinst and Fred Good have had ideas about starting a journal,  
and Wolfgang Zocher actually began one on the Web, complete with ISBN  
number. I don’t know what the political thing to do here is, but I  
suggest that all these parties, Forssell, Williams, Klinedinst and Good,  
and Zocher, get in touch with each other. Wolfgang is ill; I don’t know  
if he can participate but he should be asked. We need an editor or  
coeditors, a volunteer staff to answer mail, and whatever else the  
founders decree.

Previous journal attempts have failed for lack of submitted materials.  
That will probably change next year, and I think we should be ready.  
There should be a journal with authoritative peer reviewers available to  
it for people exploring, testing, and applying PCT. It would be a shame  
if the only place where a paper on perceptual control could be sent were  
a conventional journal of psychology, where the reviewers all think that  
negative feedback means adverse criticism. Apologies, by the way, if all  
this has already been said by Lloyd and Fred.

Perhaps what I hope most earnestly and sadly is that all those who have  
ceased to participate in the CSG will, where possible, read this issue  
and recall who the others in it were before all the bad things happened,  
how we were all pursuing the bright shining Grail, and fashioning it at  
the same time. Our differences with each other are as nothing compared  
with the difference our work has yet to make in the world. Let’s declare  
that the past is gone, and start work on the future.

Best,

Bill P.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/user_avatar/discourse.iapct.org/rsmarken/32/3553_2.png) [@rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/rsmarken)\
**Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 4:00am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/future-of-pct/4624/5 "2008-12-03T04:00:41Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2008.12.02.2000)]

> Bill Powers (2008.12.2.1128 MST)–
> 
> I have at least one reason for wishing it were 1994 again, but we are now  
> 14 years later, and the future is looking good. While unpacking I have  
> come across Volume 4, Number 1, of Closed Loop, Winter 1994, the first  
> issue subtitled “Journal of Living Control Systems.” I think it  
> is time to reconstruct some of the spirit of that issue, and the  
> substance as well.

I’d like to see that one myself. I hope Dag scans it in!

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> –  
> Richard S. Marken PhD  
> [rsmarken@gmail.com](mailto:rsmarken@gmail.com)

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DagArchive](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@DagArchive](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/DagArchive)\
**Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/future-of-pct/4624/6 "2008-12-03T20:01:17Z")

</div>

[From Dag Forssell (2008.12.3 12:00 PST)]

> [Bill Powers (2008.12.2.1128 MST)]
> 
> . . . I on the other hand, hope I can persuade Dag Forssell to put this particular issue into electronic form and publish it on CSGnet . . .

I converted six issues of Closed Loop by runnig OCR and painstakingly formatting the text. My files are dater June 2001.

At this time, I have on my plate to simply scan remaining issues to pdf.

I will send everyone the issue Bill asks about as an attachment next week, when I am back home and can do it.

All the issues will get posted at www.pctresources.com, but I must get through a learning curve with web creation software before I get it together.

Best, Dag

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers1)\
**Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 12:24am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/future-of-pct/4624/7 "2008-12-04T00:24:12Z")

</div>

[From Bill Powers (2008.12.04.1718  
MST)]

Dag Forssell (2008.12.3 12:00 PST) --

> > . . . I on the other hand, hope I can persuade Dag Forssell to put this particular issue into electronic form and publish it on CSGnet . . .

> I will send everyone the issue Bill asks about as an attachment next week, when I am back home and can do it.

I never doubted that you would for one second.

Best,  
Bill P.