# Fw: Survey

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-survey/4651>\
**Category:** CSG1999\
**Created:** [November 19, 1999, 7:56pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-survey/4651 "1999-11-19T19:56:49Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 5\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![R\_Marken](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@R\_Marken](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/R_Marken)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 1999, 7:56pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-survey/4651/1 "1999-11-19T19:56:49Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (991119.1255)]

Tim Carey (991120.0630)--

Hi Tim (and Tom) --

Here are my data:

During the past six years prior to 19 November 1999, how many schools  
have you visited where, by any criteria he might apply, Ed Ford would  
say that:

1. RTP was used very well? 0  
2. RTP was used fairly well? 0  
3. RTP was used poorly? 0  
4. RTP was not used, another program is used? 0  
5. If another program was used, what was it?  
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(Assertive Discipline, "Glasser," Make Your Day,  
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Boy's Town, Cognitive Restructuring, "Yell and Shout,"  
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Teacher's Personal Preference," many others.)

I think these are accurate. I presume universities don't  
count as schools.

Best

Rick

> **···**
>
> --  
> Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313  
> Life Learning Associates mailto: [rmarken@earthlink.net](mailto:rmarken@earthlink.net)  
> [http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken](http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken)

---

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**Author:** ![Tim\_Carey1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@Tim\_Carey1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Tim_Carey1)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 1999, 7:58pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-survey/4651/2 "1999-11-19T19:58:37Z")

</div>

[Tim Carey (991120.0630)]

> **···**
>
> -----Original Message-----  
> From: Tom Bourbon \<tbourbon@centex.net\>  
> To: Tim Carey \<t.a.carey@uq.net.au\>  
> Date: Saturday, November 20, 1999 12:51  
> Subject: Survey
> 
> > Tim,
> > 
> > Would you please forward this message to CSGNet?
> > 
> > # Tom
> > 
> > Once up on a time, PCT scientists rallied to the cry, "First the  
> > phenomenon, then the theory." That cry was our reminder to ourselves  
> > that we did science differently from many other people. That cry was  
> > also our challenge to anyone who had never looked at a demonstration of  
> > PCT research and modeling, but who told us what was wrong with PCT and  
> > what we should to to improve it. We often compared those talkers who had  
> > not looked to the people who would not look through the earliest  
> > telescopes and microscopes, but who went ahead and criticized those who  
> > had.
> > 
> > Once again, for the past several days, a major topic on CSGNet has been  
> > Ed Ford's "Responsible Thinking Process" (RTP). Bill and Rick are the  
> > major discussants. I do not participate on CSGNet, but my name has been  
> > mentioned several times during the discussion of RTP.
> > 
> > So that people who read the discussions about RTP might be better  
> > prepared to judge their merits, and in the spirit of our old rallying  
> > cry, "First the phenomenon, then the theory," I suggest that Bill, Rick  
> > and I each  
> > answer the following very simple questions. (This will be sort of like  
> > telling the public how many times each of us looked through the  
> > telescope before we spoke.) After we answer, someone who follows CSGNet  
> > can tabulate the results and insert them at the beginning of every major  
> > post about RTP. (I include my answers in the survey form.)
> > 
> > A SURVEY For Bill, Rick and Tom
> > 
> > During the past six years prior to 19 November 1999, how many schools  
> > have you visited where, by any criteria he might apply, Ed Ford would  
> > say that:
> > 
> > 1. RTP was used very well? 24+  
> > 2. RTP was used fairly well? 40+  
> > 3. RTP was used poorly? 40+  
> > 4. RTP was not used, another program is used? 24+  
> > 5. If another program was used, what was it?  
> > &nbsp;&nbsp;(Assertive Discipline, "Glasser," Make Your Day,  
> > &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Boy's Town, Cognitive Restructuring, "Yell and Shout,"  
> > &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Teacher's Personal Preference," many others.)
> > 
> > Respectfully submitted in the old spirit of, "First the phenomenon, then  
> > the theory."
> > 
> > Tom

---

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 1999, 9:30pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-survey/4651/3 "1999-11-19T21:30:35Z")

</div>

[From Bruce Gregory (991119.1627 EST)]

Rick Marken (991119.1255)

> Tim Carey (991120.0630)--
> 
> Hi Tim (and Tom) --
> 
> Here are my data:
> 
> During the past six years prior to 19 November 1999, how many schools  
> have you visited where, by any criteria he might apply, Ed Ford would  
> say that:
> 
> 1. RTP was used very well? 0  
> 2. RTP was used fairly well? 0  
> 3. RTP was used poorly? 0  
> 4. RTP was not used, another program is used? 0  
> 5. If another program was used, what was it?  
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(Assertive Discipline, "Glasser," Make Your Day,  
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Boy's Town, Cognitive Restructuring, "Yell and Shout,"  
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Teacher's Personal Preference," many others.)
> 
> I think these are accurate. I presume universities don't  
> count as schools.

I think you should have added that this lack of experience enables you  
to be particularly unbiased in your assessment of the program and how it  
is described.

Bruce Gregory

---

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**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers1)\
**Post date:** [November 20, 1999, 1:59am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-survey/4651/4 "1999-11-20T01:59:57Z")

</div>

[From Bill Powers (991119.1806 MDT)]

Hi, Tim, Tom, and Rick --

Tom:

> > So that people who read the discussions about RTP might be better  
> > prepared to judge their merits, and in the spirit of our old rallying  
> > cry, "First the phenomenon, then the theory," I suggest that Bill, Rick  
> > and I each  
> > answer the following very simple questions. (This will be sort of like  
> > telling the public how many times each of us looked through the  
> > telescope before we spoke.) After we answer, someone who follows CSGNet  
> > can tabulate the results and insert them at the beginning of every major  
> > post about RTP. (I include my answers in the survey form.)
> > 
> > A SURVEY For Bill, Rick and Tom
> > 
> > During the past six years prior to 19 November 1999, how many schools  
> > have you visited where, by any criteria he might apply, Ed Ford would  
> > say that:
> > 
> > 1. RTP was used very well? 0  
> > 2. RTP was used fairly well? 0  
> > 3. RTP was used poorly? 1  
> > 4. RTP was not used, another program is used? 0  
> > 5. If another program was used, what was it? N.A.

> > Respectfully submitted in the old spirit of, "First the phenomenon, then  
> > the theory."

My information on how the program works is vicarious, except for the one  
example where I visited a school (with Ed and Tom) where Ed said the  
program was not working well. I have gleaned my information from talking  
with Ed, Tom, LeEdna Custer, George Venetis, Tim Carey, and numerous other  
people in Ed's program, and of course from reading Ed's books including the  
latest edition of his "Discipline" book, which includes many articles by  
people other than Ed, as well as his Web page.

My recent discussions have been concerned with differences between Ed  
Ford's statements in his book (and in a few of his presentations that I  
have heard) about how his program works and what I have heard from others  
like Tom, Tim, and so on about what is actually done. For example, without  
naming names, I have been told on good authority that the "I see you have  
chosen.." concept has met with objections from some RTP leaders, and at  
least in some places is not used at all. The reasons for objecting are  
quite similar to mine. I understand that PCT is very specifically taught to  
RTP program managers, and I assume, knowing who is teaching it, that it  
does NOT include explaining that punishments and rewards are the reason why  
children and teachers improve their behavior.

The response to all this has been a considerable disappointment to me.

Best,

Bill P.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory8](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory8](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory8)\
**Post date:** [November 21, 1999, 2:52am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-survey/4651/5 "1999-11-21T02:52:36Z")

</div>

[From Bruce Gregory (991119.2152 EST)]

Bill Powers (991119.1806 MDT)

> The response to all this has been a considerable disappointment to me.

Don't feel like The Lone Ranger. There is more than enough disappointment to  
go around.

Bruce Gregory