# FW: The Level of Fear

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-the-level-of-fear/4247>\
**Category:** CSG1999\
**Created:** [September 2, 1999, 3:36pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-the-level-of-fear/4247 "1999-09-02T15:36:22Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 2\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 1999, 3:36pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-the-level-of-fear/4247/1 "1999-09-02T15:36:22Z")

</div>

[From Bruce Gregory (990902.1136 EDT)]

Kenny Kitzke (990826.1203 EDT)

> \<It is not obvious that it is a controlled variable.\>
> 
> Why not? If I fear that a thunder storm is coming and it  
> will blow rain in  
> my bedroom window.

I don't think fear is quite the correct word here. Concern might be  
better. But let's put that aside. If fear is a controlled variable you  
must be able to perceive fear and to act in a way to reduce it. In your  
example you have the thought that rain will blow into your bedroom  
window. You presumably have a reference level for "no rain through the  
bedroom window." Closing the window matches the perception with the  
reference level. So I would say that the controlled variable is the  
state of the bedroom window. The concern you feel could be associated  
with many different controlled variables, each of which has to be  
brought to an appropriate reference level. I am suggesting that the fear  
serves as a signal that actions must be taken, but in itself is not a  
controlled variable. If it were, you might take actions to simply reduce  
the fear--pouring yourself a stiff drink, perhaps. But most people would  
feel this action was not the appropriate one to take. If nothing you can  
do will reduce the fear, drinking, drugs, or prayer might be the only  
course of action.

> \<To a certain extent many people enjoy fear as long as they feel that  
> their ability to exercise control is not threatened--horror movies,  
> carnival rides.\>
> 
> Sounds like they are controlling some perception of a type of  
> fear to me.  
> Are you refuting your own claim that fear is only an  
> experience of error?

I hope not. Riding the roller coaster is controlling the perception that  
you are riding the roller coaster. Feeling mild fear is an accompanying  
emotion. Otherwise, you could simply stay at home and set the reference  
level for fear to slightly positive.

> It seems to me that fear may have nothing to do with  
> survival-like intrinsic  
> variables.

I'm afraid we differ here.

> I fear thunder storms for reasons quite apart  
> from being struck  
> by lightening and being fried. We deal with and control fear  
> all the time.

See my example above. Do we control fear or do we control other  
variables which are associated with fear. Putting on a safety belt  
reduces the fear associated with imagining that you may be thrown from a  
car. The controlled perception is "wearing a safety belt". Attempts to  
control fear directly don't work very well for me. Perhaps you have a  
different experience.

> Some people fear flying not because of possible life ending  
> crashes but from  
> a likelihood of becoming nauseous and being embarrassed,  
> hardly survival  
> related intrinsic internal mandates for random  
> reorganization.

I disagree. Nausea is definitely associated with threats to survival and  
being embarrassed is associated with loss of status.

> Becoming  
> nauseous generally does not stop college students from  
> drinking too much  
> beer. I doubt they fear barfing. If they did, would they  
> control that fear  
> by drinking within limits?

In this case, I suspect status is more important than nausea. This  
phenomenon is familiar in young males. They make the best soldiers  
because they are able to subordinate their survival "instincts" to their  
need to preserve status--"being a real man and showing courage in the  
face of adversity."

> Well what exactly does the HPCT model say fear is? How is it  
> experienced?  
> Is it a discrete event, a variable event? What? Does anyone know?

Again, look at Bill's chapter on emotions in LCS II. I re-read it over  
the weekend. It is very interesting.

> Fear, you admit, is certainly part of our experience. What  
> do we do when we  
> experience fear?

Depends. Fight or flight are two major responses.

> Reorganize?

Only if fighting or fleeing are blocked, I would say.

> Act by experience to reduce  
> fear?

Yes.

> Behave differently? Suffer because we can't reorganize?

Yes.

> Control  
> the perception of  
> fear?

Very hard to do. But your experience may be different from mine.

Both? Neither? It depends? On what? If HPCT is a

> complete model of  
> what people do and perceive, what is the explanation for what  
> this experience  
> is and how does the PCT model address it?

I've tried to answer those questions above.

> Can fear be modeled? Can we do experiments and test for fear  
> as a controlled  
> variable?

Lot's of animal experiments. Some with human beings.

> Has anyone tried? When you tell someone who is  
> afraid to fly that  
> its all in their head, and irrational, do they resist your action?

Probably not. It simply does nothing to reduce their fear. Most people  
do not feel it is important to convince others that their fear of flying  
is rational, so they don't resist people telling them that it is  
irrational. They \_know\_ it is irrational.

> When we recall a frightening experience, are you sure we  
> don't recall our  
> perception of how it felt to us?

No.

> Can we be afraid of the  
> unknown, something  
> we have never experienced before?

Sure. In fact, we are often afraid of the unknown (the noise in the  
"empty" garage). When we discover what the unknown is (the cat is  
trapped in the garage), we experience relief.

> Can we perceive what it is  
> like to be  
> afraid in an of itself, regardless of any frightening  
> experience accompanied  
> to it?

I don't know. Can you?

> Is there a kind of conceivable fear that can be resolved only by  
> reorganization?

Fear associated with falling off a bicycle.

> Does this mean an intrinsic variable must be  
> threatened?

No.

> Is there a kind of system level fear perception like the fear  
> of germs, the  
> fear of an abusive father, the fear of being caught  
> misbehaving, which are  
> built on combinations of beliefs, that could be eliminated by  
> looking down on  
> these phobia-like neuroses produce errors to our higher  
> levels of perceptions  
> for having a joyful spirit in our heart afraid of nothing?

Sure. But heed A.E. Housman's observation:

... And malt does more than Milton can  
To justify God's ways to man

Bruce Gregory

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Kenneth\_Kitzke\_Value](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenneth\_Kitzke\_Value](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Kenneth_Kitzke_Value)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 1999, 1:31am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/fw-the-level-of-fear/4247/2 "1999-09-02T01:31:59Z")

</div>

[From Kenny Kitzke (990826.1203 EDT)]

\<Bruce Gregory (990826.1203 EDT)\>

Thanks for offering some of your perceptions about fear. I think you were  
the only one to so dare. But, if I recall correctly, Rick thought they were  
great ideas. That should pretty much settle the matter (as coercion was also  
settled).

\<I suspect it is the way we experience particular types of error.\>

You mean that we experience an error signal that we perceive as fear? And  
the fear we perceive drives our output? Could you explain your comment  
better and what "way" it is you are talking about?

\<Fear is experienced.\>

Yes. I agree, it is very real to me and all human beings.

\<It is not obvious that it is a controlled variable.\>

Why not? If I fear that a thunder storm is coming and it will blow rain in  
my bedroom window. I go upstairs and close my bedroom window so it won't  
rain on the hardwood floor even if the storm hits. My action moves my fear  
variable perception back to near zero and since my fear is now under control,  
I return to my computer (having already saved my work because of the same  
fear that I am experiencing about the thunder and lightening) to finish my  
post.

Seems like the same way my behavior works when I want to control my desire  
for a warm jolt of caffeine and take a sip of my morning coffee.

\<To a certain extent many people enjoy fear as long as they feel that  
their ability to exercise control is not threatened--horror movies,  
carnival rides.\>

Sounds like they are controlling some perception of a type of fear to me.  
Are you refuting your own claim that fear is only an experience of error?

\<Yes. Fear of flying is a good example. Some people are terrified of  
flying, others enjoy it. It seems to be associated with lack of control  
associated with survival. Certain individuals experience this lack of  
control more acutely than  
others. This probably has to do with the organization of individual  
hierarchies and different reference levels for intrinsic variables. Some  
people are more fearful than others, just as some people are more easily  
bored than others.\>

It seems to me that fear may have nothing to do with survival-like intrinsic  
variables. I fear thunder storms for reasons quite apart from being struck  
by lightening and being fried. We deal with and control fear all the time.

Some people fear flying not because of possible life ending crashes but from  
a likelihood of becoming nauseous and being embarrassed, hardly survival  
related intrinsic internal mandates for random reorganization. Becoming  
nauseous generally does not stop college students from drinking too much  
beer. I doubt they fear barfing. If they did, would they control that fear  
by drinking within limits?

\<I doubt that fear is a controlled variable.\>

Well what exactly does the HPCT model say fear is? How is it experienced?  
Is it a discrete event, a variable event? What? Does anyone know?

Fear, you admit, is certainly part of our experience. What do we do when we  
experience fear? Reorganize? Act by experience to reduce fear? Behave  
differently? Suffer because we can't reorganize? Control the perception of  
fear? Both? Neither? It depends? On what? If HPCT is a complete model of  
what people do and perceive, what is the explanation for what this experience  
is and how does the PCT model address it?

Can fear be modeled? Can we do experiments and test for fear as a controlled  
variable? Has anyone tried? When you tell someone who is afraid to fly that  
its all in their head, and irrational, do they resist your action?

> 5) Can fear be created by internal imagination within the  
> mind; without any  
> environmental input?

\<Yes. Recalling a frightening experience is frequently accompanied by  
fear.\>

When we recall a frightening experience, are you sure we don't recall our  
perception of how it felt to us? Can we be afraid of the unknown, something  
we have never experienced before? Can we perceive what it is like to be  
afraid in an of itself, regardless of any frightening experience accompanied  
to it?

Is there a kind of conceivable fear that can be resolved only by  
reorganization? Does this mean an intrinsic variable must be threatened?

Is there a kind of system level fear perception like the fear of germs, the  
fear of an abusive father, the fear of being caught misbehaving, which are  
built on combinations of beliefs, that could be eliminated by looking down on  
these phobia-like neuroses produce errors to our higher levels of perceptions  
for having a joyful spirit in our heart afraid of nothing?

Kenny