[Fwd: conflict over control]

CSGnet Archive CSG1999
1

From John Appel

David Goldstein wrote:

From: David Goldstein
Subject: Re: conflict over control
Date: 01/20/99

It sounds like you have discovered the phenomenon of "learned helplessness"
which Seligman talks about.

I agree. It is learned. Even an infant tries to control its sucking on the
nipple.

As a result of living with people who stop you from doing what you want, or
insist on you doing what they want, a person gives up pursuing his/her own
goals.

My theory says he cannot be stopped unless he gives in. Thus submission is the
key

In PCT, we might describe this as saying that the gain of the control system
is very low or zero. It is like a temperature control system in which the
thermostat has been turned off. There is no reference temperature which the
system is controlling. If we are talking about the control system(s) for the
self-image, then there is no reference for this. I can see that a person may
feel as though they have lost self-identity.

I find this line of reasoning difficult to follow. I guess PCT focuses on what
goes on inside a persons head. Of course every thing a person experiences, or
does, must occur with in his head--"intrapsychic" in psychoanalytic terms. My
theory is "inter psychic" referring to a person's interaction with his
environment, paricularly other people in his environment. I find this theory
very useful treating psychiatric patients, also useful in getting along with
anyone, even when arguing about politics.

What are the advantages of PCT, to you, or possibly to me, in getting along
with other people?.

People diagnosed with Schizophrenia often display this lack of initiating
activity and carrying out plans.

I agree. That is my experience also. My theory says they are in a double bind:
whatever they try to do would be by decided by another person, but to have an
identity they must decide for themselves. Catatonia results in the extreme..

Perhaps this is an effective way of avoiding being controlled by others. If
true, then it is a way of controlling. The problem with this solution is
that the price is too high. It is like a sensory deprivation experiment in
which normal people will hallucinate.

I'm so glad you are familiar with isolation experiments. A psychotic patient is
in the equivalent of an isolation tank, but with no option of getting out and
returning to interaction with his environment.

Yours

John Appel

···

Subject :conflict over control.
Date: Jan.21 99

2

[From Rick Marken (990121.2150)]

John Appel (Jan.21 99) to David Goldstein --

What are the advantages of PCT, to you, or possibly to me, in
getting along with other people?.

An excellent question! Earlier in your post you say:

I find [my] theory very useful treating psychiatric patients,
also useful in getting along with anyone, even when arguing
about politics.

First I'd like to hear how your theory helps you get along with
people. Then I'll tell you how (or whether) PCT helps me do the
same. (I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours;-))

Best

Rick

···

--
Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313
Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/

3

PCT allows one to view interpersonal phenomenon from an intrapsychic
perspective. Each person in a dyad is controlling some variables of
experience by means of what is said and done. To understand a particular
interaction, one must discover what each person wants (what each wants to
experience). PCT tells us that one must take the viewpoint of each person in
the interaction, the inside or subjective view.

In the Leslie case, you mentioned that after she cut herself, she went to
her parent's bedroom and showed her parents what she did. Her father brought
Leslie to the hospital. What experience(s) was Leslie controlling in this
interaction? Same question for the father and mother.

And how do you know that your guess is the correct one? How would you check
it out? PCT provides some methods for approaching these questions. It also
leads one to ask a person different sort of questions.

···

To: John Appel, and others following this thread.
From: David Goldstein
Subject: Conflict over control
Date: 1/22/99