Going Rogue: Share Traders More Reckless Than Psychopaths, Study Shows

[Shannon Williams 2011.09.29 10:30 CST]

[From Bill Powers (2011.09.29. 0815 MDT)]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Richard on this one. Guessing at motivations
is a pretty unreliable way to reach the truth, but you're doing that a good
deal more than Richard is, especially when you start guessing about the
detailed circumstances of other people's children (Martin's), and their
personal preferences. It's too easy to make up stories that fit what you're
trying to prove.

A prediction is a guess. To demand that people not guess, is to
demand that they not make predictions. You cannot get feedback of
your ideas without predictions and thus, without guesses.

Thanks,
Shannon

[Shannon Williams 2011.09.29 10:30 CST]

The problem (from a scientific POV) comes when you don't get feedback.
I am definitely getting feedback.

Thanks,
Shannon

···

[Shannon Williams 2011.09.29 10:30 CST]

[From Bill Powers (2011.09.29. 0815 MDT)]

I'm afraid I have to agree with Richard on this one. Guessing at motivations
is a pretty unreliable way to reach the truth, but you're doing that a good
deal more than Richard is, especially when you start guessing about the
detailed circumstances of other people's children (Martin's), and their
personal preferences. It's too easy to make up stories that fit what you're
trying to prove.

A prediction is a guess. �To demand that people not guess, is to
demand that they not make predictions. �You cannot get feedback of
your ideas without predictions and thus, without guesses.

Thanks,
Shannon

[From Bill Powers (2011.09.29.0933 MDT)]

Shannon Williams 2011.09.29 10:30 CST --
A prediction is a guess. To demand that people not guess, is to
demand that they not make predictions. You cannot get feedback of
your ideas without predictions and thus, without guesses.

You know I love you, Shannon, but I have to say you're wiggling around a lot.

Sure we have to guess, but we don't guess at the data we're trying to explain. Guesses are where models come from, and we don't start applying models to explain things until we've checked them out.

Maybe Martin's girls are isolated princesses in a tower shielded from the real world Out There. If that were true, you could test various kinds of predictions about how they would feel and behave. But maybe that's not how they are (Martin says they're not). So before using that model to explain or predict observations, it's really necessary to find out if the assumptions are true.

You knew that.

Best,

Bill P.

[Shannon Williams 2011.09.29 11:00 CST]

[From Bill Powers (2011.09.29.0933 MDT)]

You know I love you, Shannon

I love you too! I am inclined to just stop, because I have reached my goal.

Sure we have to guess, but we don't guess at the data we're trying to
explain.

OK. The difference is that you do not know the history of my
familiarity with the data. So you can't know that for me it was a
prediction. Just like when I make guesses about Martin, these gueses
are predictions.

Actually, these gueses fall naturally from PCT, so I don't understand
why you think I am wiggling. As Richard pointed out, it is a
tautology to say: If people do not control for the welfare of others,
then they do not control for the welfare of others. PCT just points
out that we control our perceptions, so it is an easy conclusion that:
If people do not control for the welfare of others, then 'welfare of
others' is not one of their controled perceptions.

The distinction I am making is that we tend to ignore perceptions that
we are not controlling for, which is another way of saying that we
don't see them.

Maybe Martin's girls are isolated princesses in a tower shielded from the
real world Out There. If that were true, you could test various kinds of
predictions about how they would feel and behave. But maybe that's not how
they are (Martin says they're not). So before using that model to explain or
predict observations, it's really necessary to find out if the assumptions
are true.

Maybe. I was not really talking much about Martin's daughters. I was
talking about his perceptions of them, or more precisely- where they
fit in his spaceship/life. I was trying to isolate why he did not
acknowledge the perceptions that you and Rick are trying to get him to
control for. Rick and Martin are very much alike, they just have
different controlled perceptions. (I guess you can say that about any
two people though).

Thanks,
Shannon

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.29.0930)]

Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep 28 1253 MDT)–

RM: Before I reply can you tell me how we can evaluate success if your
programs are implemented. What are the aggregate measures to look at
to see if this is working?

ML: 1) The net assets of the people due to asset purchases, debt paydown and asset value increases such as housing prices and the percent of mortgages that are underwater.

Can you tell me where I can find that measure so I can see how it has varied over time. To see if your proposal is possibly effective we would have to see if it changed the temporal behavior of this variable. I myself would prefer to see a measure of the proportion of the population that has any assets at all. An increase in overall assets (like an increase in GDP) could result from an increase in only a small proportion of the population which doesn’t count for me as an improvement in the economy (an improvement in everyone’s ability to control).

  1. reduced unemployment levels and foreclosure levels

  2. increases in tax revenues (without increasing the tax rates or taxing the Fed Reserve distributions)

  3. improved dividend returns from corporations providing a more fundamental rather that speculative basis for stock prices and reduced overall volatility

  4. a reduced “misery index” (inflation + unemployment), some inflation is expected

  5. enough deleveraging of the economy from reductions in corporate and consumer debt to enable further Federal Reserve distributions to the people without igniting inflation

  6. increases in exports and imports, increased growth in China, India, Korea, Japan, Indonesia, Europe, etc.

OK, so these are pretty standard measures of economic performance though only unemployment is really important to me – as well as a real wage level that supports a nice, decent life. Again, my idea of a good economy is one where everyone can control what matters to them, so that they don’t have to resort to controlling each other through exploitation or revolution.

So now to you proposal:

Reform the Federal Reserve to “print” money direct to every citizen via debit card accounts. This would make federal reserve actions transparent, and would not require a pyramid of debt to increase demand and would more fairly allocate the benefit of money creation. The resistance to cutting spending even among republicans demonstrated by the recent debt ceiling crisis demonstrate that we are going to have to inflate our way out of this debt.

Debt = revenue - spending. Our current debt is a result of revenue decreases (due to the Bush tax cuts) and spending increases (the Bush unfunded wars ). The rational way to eliminate the debt is to eliminate the Bush tax cuts and stop the wars. No reform of the Fed is necessary; the Fed had nothing to do with the debt. It’s completely a Rethugican creation.

Simultaneously dial back fractional reserve banking to increase stability and decrease leverage in the economy. Allow interest rates to float so there is an incentive to save again. Eliminate the double taxation on dividends and capital gains, financing it by capping the deductibility of interest at say $1 million, the would either make dividend payments by corporations deductable or reduce the personal income tax on dividends to zero.

I’m afraid that I can’t let you implement any of these policies because you right wingers have proven to be uninterested in whether your policies produce the claimed results. The Bush tax cuts were supposed to produce jobs and prosperity; in fact the result was no jobs, flat wages and a huge deficit. So you don’t get to play anymore (well, you shouldn’t get to play anymore but it’s very tough to stop ideologues like you, especially now when you have very wealthy supporters; you’re only a pawn in their game, boobala).

The overall plan is one of reducing leverage in the private sector of the economy, increasing demand, employment, investment and savings. The risk is greater inflation,

It turns out that the Fed “printing money” has no effect on inflation at all; the data show very clearly that the Fed’s discount rate follows inflation rate (like a cursor tracking a target in a pursuit tracking task). I’ve attached a graph of the relationship. The idea that the Fed discount rate (the lower the rate the more money goes into circulation – “is printed”) influences inflation is clearly a myth. This fact doesn’t necessarily invalidate your proposal though it would lead one to suspect that your assumptions about the relationship between the activities to the Fed and the behavior of economic variables are questionable. But this point is really moot because, as I said above, no policy proposal coming from a right winger should ever be allowed to be implemented because there is no evidence that it would ever be un-implemented if the evidence showed that it was not working as advertised.

but that is reduced by the huge amount of unemployed and underemployed labor ready to honor the dollars that are printed.

Boy, the Fed’s going to have a lot of people working for it.

China is still intent on manipulating its currency for trade advantage, so it too must honor the dollar if it intends to continue to artificially keep the value of yuan low.

Inflation can be thought of as a tax on savings, i.e., the other currency out there, and all dollar denominated assets like treasuries and other bonds and mortgage securities. This form of “quantitative easing” overcomes the problem of creating money through credit that doesn’t work during times of economic uncertainty. The money policy should continue to target 1.5 to 3% inflation, but initially should risk a bit more. I’d start at $1.2 trillion, i.e., $4000 for every man, woman and child.

Even the men (and women) who don’t need it and won’t spend it?

RSM

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Sep 30 0059 MDT]

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.29.0930)]

  > Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep 28 1253 MDT)--



  >> RM: Before I reply can you tell me how we can evaluate

success if your

  >> programs are implemented.  What are the aggregate

measures to look at

  >> to see if this is working?
    ML: 1) The net assets of the people due to

asset purchases, debt paydown and asset value increases such as
housing prices and the percent of mortgages that are underwater.

    Can you tell me where I can find that measure so I can see how

it has varied over time. To see if your proposal is possibly
effective we would have to see if it changed the temporal
behavior of this variable. I myself would prefer to see a
measure of the proportion of the population that has any assets
at all. An increase in overall assets (like an increase in GDP)
could result from an increase in only a small proportion of the
population which doesn’t count for me as an improvement in the
economy (an improvement in everyone’s ability to control).

The measure exists, but I'm not sure where.  Part of it is the

savings rate, which is not just the amount saved or invested, but is
the net of that and debt. So, someone paying down credit cards and
other debt is also increasing the “savings rate”. There are also
statistics on housing stocks and other assets such as stock
ownership, real estate values including commercial real estate.
Some people might purchase automobiles, more energy efficient
appliances, weatherproof their homes increasing their net worth and
reducing future energy and maintenance costs. Of course some may
just consume food, entertainment, etc. Early in the financial
crisis, the government attempted a fiscal stimulus, the checks we
all recieved in mail, and the cuts in payroll taxes. The analysis
that was done in the wake of that stimulous is the type of analysis
that would measure this. Because the money distributed to
consumers then, was debt financed, it was just taken out of another
part of the world economy through the sale of bonds. The
conclusion was that the stimulus was actually deflationary, because
people “saved”, reducing the supply of money. They were not
inclined to spend in a period of economic uncertainty. The pyramid
of fractional reserve credit and thus the money supply was
reduced. “Printing” the money does not have that problem, because
if money is printed to an inflation target, enough can be printed to
overcome deflationary saving.

Where you really see the difference in effectiveness is from a

micro-economic perspective. The Federal Reserve has already
accumulated 2 to 3 trillion dollars of “quantitative easing” during
the crisis. This printed money just purchased treasuries, giving
bond holders the benefit of first access to the newly printed
money. That money eventually reduced the amount of deflation and
actually resulted in inflation in certain sectors of the economy,
but didn’t do much for housing, employment or increasing demand.
For round numbers, consider that $2.4 trillion is $8000 for every
man, woman and child in the country,. Did the typical family of 4
receive $32000 in benefit from this quantitative easing? Under my
plan EVERY family of 4 would recieve first access to that $32,000 of
newly created money. Are these families going to be defaulting on
mortages, delaying home and auto purchases and maitenance? The
support for housing, auto and other markets is obvious. Even if
most of the first round goes to paying down debt, we have the
benefit of the consumers being less leveraged.

    2) reduced unemployment levels and

foreclosure levels

    3) increases in tax revenues (without increasing the tax rates

or taxing the Fed Reserve distributions)

    4) improved dividend returns from corporations providing a more

fundamental rather that speculative basis for stock prices and
reduced overall volatility

    5) a reduced "misery index" (inflation + unemployment), some

inflation is expected

    6) enough deleveraging of the economy from reductions in

corporate and consumer debt to enable further Federal Reserve
distributions to the people without igniting inflation

    7) increases in exports and imports, increased growth in China,

India, Korea, Japan, Indonesia, Europe, etc.

    OK, so these are pretty standard measures of economic

performance though only unemployment is really important to me
– as well as a real wage level that supports a nice, decent
life. Again, my idea of a good economy is one where everyone
can control what matters to them, so that they don’t have to
resort to controlling each other through exploitation or
revolution.

They would have first access to and control of the newly printed

money.

  So now to you proposal:
    Reform the Federal Reserve to "print" money

direct to every citizen via debit card accounts. This would
make federal reserve actions transparent, and would not require
a pyramid of debt to increase demand and would more fairly
allocate the benefit of money creation. The resistance to
cutting spending even among republicans demonstrated by the
recent debt ceiling crisis demonstrate that we are going to have
to inflate our way out of this debt.

    Debt = revenue - spending. Our current debt is a result of

revenue decreases (due to the Bush tax cuts) and spending
increases (the Bush unfunded wars ). The rational way to
eliminate the debt is to eliminate the Bush tax cuts and stop
the wars. No reform of the Fed is necessary; the Fed had nothing
to do with the debt. It’s completely a Rethugican creation.

That isn't "debt", that is "deficit".   Inflation doesn't reduce

deficit, except if it results in increased economic activity and
employment, and thus increased tax revenues, which I think it will,
if the money goes direct to consumers. But we can inflate our way
out of “debt”. Not just the deficit but the whole dollar
denominated debt is reduced in value by inflation. we get to pay it
off in cheaper dollars because it is dollar denominated. The
burden of the debt is decreased by the inflated GDP in dollar
terms. Tax revenues from capital gains are increased by the
inflation component of the increase in asset prices and income tax
bracket creep. However, this moral hazard, the incentive for
government to inflate should be eliminated. Taxes on capital gains
and dividend distributions should be eliminated, since that revenue
stream has already been taxed once.

    Simultaneously dial back fractional reserve

banking to increase stability and decrease leverage in the
economy. Allow interest rates to float so there is an
incentive to save again. Eliminate the double taxation on
dividends and capital gains, financing it by capping the
deductibility of interest at say $1 million, the would either
make dividend payments by corporations deductable or reduce the
personal income tax on dividends to zero.

    I'm afraid that I can't let you implement any of these policies

because you right wingers have proven to be uninterested in
whether your policies produce the claimed results. The Bush tax
cuts were supposed to produce jobs and prosperity; in fact the
result was no jobs, flat wages and a huge deficit. So you don’t
get to play anymore (well, you shouldn’t get to play anymore but
it’s very tough to stop ideologues like you, especially now when
you have very wealthy supporters; you’re only a pawn in their
game, boobala).

I haven't met any of these wealth "supporters".  The Bush policies

were doing pretty well keeping the economy going in the wake of 9/11
and the bursting of the dot-com bubble, until the housing asset
bubble burst. The housing asset bubble was caused by the way the
artificially low interest rates due to the quasi-governmental status
of FANNIE and FREDDIE combined with the current Federal Reserve way
of printing money through near zero interest rates and an unstable
pyramid of credit. Interest rates were so poor, that American
savings rates were at historical lows.

    The overall plan is one of reducing

leverage in the private sector of the economy, increasing
demand, employment, investment and savings. The risk is greater
inflation,

    It turns out that the Fed "printing money" has no effect on

inflation at all; the data show very clearly that the Fed’s
discount rate follows inflation rate (like a cursor tracking a
target in a pursuit tracking task). I’ve attached a graph of the
relationship. The idea that the Fed discount rate (the lower the
rate the more money goes into circulation – “is printed”)
influences inflation is clearly a myth. This fact doesn’t
necessarily invalidate your proposal though it would lead one to
suspect that your assumptions about the relationship between the
activities to the Fed and the behavior of economic variables are
questionable. But this point is really moot because, as I said
above, no policy proposal coming from a right winger should ever
be allowed to be implemented because there is no evidence that
it would ever be un-implemented if the evidence showed that it
was not working as advertised.

There is a record of other parties eventually gaining control of the

different branches of government. It is single party communists
and fascist governments that once “elected”, choose not to allow
un-implementation.

    but that is reduced by the huge amount of

unemployed and underemployed labor ready to honor the dollars
that are printed.

    Boy, the Fed's going to have a lot of people working for it.
    China is still intent on manipulating its

currency for trade advantage, so it too must honor the dollar if
it intends to continue to artificially keep the value of yuan
low.

    Inflation can be thought of as a tax on savings, i.e., the other

currency out there, and all dollar denominated assets like
treasuries and other bonds and mortgage securities. This form
of “quantitative easing” overcomes the problem of creating money
through credit that doesn’t work during times of economic
uncertainty. The money policy should continue to target 1.5 to
3% inflation, but initially should risk a bit more. I’d start
at $1.2 trillion, i.e., $4000 for every man, woman and child.

    Even the men (and women) who don't need it and won't spend it?
Why not,  they are a small percentage of the population, it would

probably cost more in paper work to do means testing than the money
it would save. The rich would be more likely to save the money
anyway, which would allow more money to be printed to others to
overcome that deflationary impact.

-- Martin L
···

On 9/29/2011 10:33 AM, Richard Marken wrote:

    RSM
  --

  Richard S. Marken PhD

  rsmarken@gmail.com

  [www.mindreadings.com](http://www.mindreadings.com)

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.0830)]

Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep 30 0059 MDT)–

The measure exists, but I’m not sure where…

Oh, shut up and take a look at this:

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday

This is where your ignorant, reactionary, anti-government policies have gotten us. What a great contribution to society you are making. It must feel great.

RSM

···


Richard S. Marken PhD

rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2011.09.30.0945 MDT)]

Rick Marken (2011.09.30.0830) –

Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep 30 0059 MDT)–

The measure exists, but I’m not sure where…

Oh, shut up and take a look at this:


http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday

This is where your ignorant, reactionary, anti-government policies have
gotten us. What a great contribution to society you are making. It
must feel great.

What an intellectually stimulating comment! I don’t know where you get
these gems, but it always amazes me when you work so hard to get exactly
the opposite of the result you want.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.0910)]

Bill Powers (2011.09.30.0945 MDT)–

Rick Marken (2011.09.30.0830) –

Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep 30 0059 MDT)–

The measure exists, but I’m not sure where…
Oh, shut up and take a look at this:


http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday

This is where your ignorant, reactionary, anti-government policies have
gotten us. What a great contribution to society you are making. It
must feel great.

What an intellectually stimulating comment!

Thanks:-)

I don’t know where you get
these gems

Bruce Nevin sent me this link.

but it always amazes me when you work so hard to get exactly
the opposite of the result you want.

What result do you think I want? Over here (in me) I seem to be getting exactly the result I want. Maybe what you mean is that I’m getting the opposite of the result that you think I should want. Which really means you’re not getting the result you want. Sorry that my behavior is so hard to control;-)

Best

Rick

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[From Bill Powers (2011.09.30.1025 MDT)]

RM: [to Martin Lewitt] This is where your ignorant, reactionary,
anti-government policies have gotten us. What a great contribution to
society you are making. It must feel great.

BP: What an intellectually stimulating comment!

Thanks:-)

BP: I don’t know where you get these gems

RM: Bruce Nevin sent me this link.

BP: but it always amazes me when you work so hard to get exactly the
opposite of the result you want.

RM: What result do you think I want? Over here (in me) I seem to be
getting exactly the result I want. Maybe what you mean is that I’m
getting the opposite of the result that you think I should want. Which
really means you’re not getting the result you want. Sorry that my
behavior is so hard to control;-)

OK, sorry, I didn’t understand what you’re trying to accomplish. I guess
I should complement you on strengthing the position of an opponent by
calling him ignorant and reactionary, disappointing your supporters by
indulging in immature name-calling, and unjustly blaming someone for our
present condition when he had nothing to do with causing it. If that’s
what you were hoping to accomplish, I have to admit you did it very well.
My apologies.

Best,

Bill P.

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.0950)]

Bill Powers (2011.09.30.1025 MDT)–

RM: What result do you think I want? Over here (in me) I seem to be
getting exactly the result I want. Maybe what you mean is that I’m
getting the opposite of the result that you think I should want. Which
really means you’re not getting the result you want. Sorry that my
behavior is so hard to control;-)

OK, sorry, I didn’t understand what you’re trying to accomplish.

You still don’t.

I guess
I should complement you on strengthing the position of an opponent by
calling him ignorant and reactionary, disappointing your supporters by
indulging in immature name-calling, and unjustly blaming someone for our
present condition when he had nothing to do with causing it. If that’s
what you were hoping to accomplish, I have to admit you did it very well.
My apologies.

You are assuming that this is what I intended to accomplish because I accomplished it for you. This is a mistake of attributing intentionality which often gets relationships into trouble; it’s taking a side effect to be an intended result. If you don’t like the side effect then just say so. But don’t take the “I see you have chosen” route; it doesn’t become you.

Love

Rick

···

Best,

Bill P.


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Sep 30 1047 MDT]

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.0830)]

        Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep

30 0059 MDT)–

The measure exists, but I’m not sure where…

      Oh, shut up and take a look at this:



      [http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday)



      This is where your ignorant, reactionary, anti-government

policies have gotten us. What a great contribution to society
you are making. It must feel great.

That chart represents a rather parochial view of "us", given

globalization you need to consider what happened to wages in Korea,
Japan, India, China and elsewhere.

You also appear to think that the Federal Reserve is one of the

ignorant, reactionary anti-government policies. You obviously
haven’t been watching Fox News or Cspan-1. Recall my explanation
of the role of the Fed in the allocation of the returns of
productivity increases to capital rather than labor from our
exchange on Dec 4, 2010:

"The Fed's mission was set by congress, full employment and stable

prices. The fed repeatedly in the 80s and 90s interpreted rising
wages as inflationary and tightened money supply and causing slow
downs. This effectively allocated more of returns from rapidly
increasing productivity to capital rather than labor, instead of
just letting market forces determine the allocation. This is one
source of the increased wealth disparity that concerns you. A
change in this can be “enforced” by simple Congressional
clarification of the mission, specifically mentioning neutrality
and/or by appointed Fed governors which will manage the Fed in the
neutral manner. "

Note that the it was this independent agency of the government that

was allocating the returns to capital. The market was trying to
allocate some of the returns to labor but the Fed would react each
time. Hmmm, perhaps it is the government that is “reactionary”. Of
course there was a Fed before 1980, but Paul volcker changed Fed
behavior in “reaction” to the experience of the Carter double digit
stagflation.

p.s.,  I think the direct to consumer money creation idea could have

worked during the Carter stagflation as well. We could have avoided
the hundreds of billions of production lost when the Federal Reserve
clamped down to “break the inflation psychology.”

-- Martin L
···

On 9/30/2011 9:28 AM, Richard Marken wrote:

  RSM

  --

  Richard S. Marken PhD

  rsmarken@gmail.com

  [www.mindreadings.com](http://www.mindreadings.com)

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.1030)]

Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep 30 1047 MDT)–

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.0830)]\

      Oh, shut up and take a look at this:



      [http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday)



      This is where your ignorant, reactionary, anti-government

policies have gotten us. What a great contribution to society
you are making. It must feel great.

That chart represents a rather parochial view of “us”

See, data is absolutely of no interest to you; you can brush it off with no problem. If these graphs don’t infuriate you then this must be a direction that is acceptable to you. There is really nothing more to talk about.

RSM

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Sep 30 1139 MDT]

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.1030)]

Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep 30 1047 MDT)–

            [From Rick Marken

(2011.09.30.0830)]\

                Oh, shut up and take a look at this:



                [http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday)



                This is where your ignorant, reactionary,

anti-government policies have gotten us. What a
great contribution to society you are making. It
must feel great.

That chart represents a rather parochial view of “us”

  See, data is absolutely of no interest to you; you can brush it

off with no problem. If these graphs don’t infuriate you then this
must be a direction that is acceptable to you. There is really
nothing more to talk about.

The data isn't news to me, but I was angry about the Federal Reserve

treating wage increases as inflationary when Greenspan was doing
this back in the 90s. I have always thought the market, not
central planners should allocate the returns from increased
productivity between capital and labor. I guess I’ve just had
longer to come to terms with it. The huge labor overhang from the
emerging third world would still have depressed some of the returns
to American labor, but that was only fair. In the long run everybody
would have been worse off under protectionism. But what the
Federal Reserve was doing taking sides was unconscionable. I
submit that even capital would have done better without the quick
trigger Federal Reserve tightening.

-- regards,

     Martin L
···

On 9/30/2011 11:33 AM, Richard Marken wrote:

  RSM

  --

  Richard S. Marken PhD

  rsmarken@gmail.com

  [www.mindreadings.com](http://www.mindreadings.com)

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Sep 30 1213 MDT]

As proof of my long standing concern about Federal Reserve biased

policy, here is something I wrote in 2001:

Martin E. Lewitt
View
profile

More options Jan 29
2001, 4:17 pm

        In article

<3A73B9DB.A1065@quiotix.com>,

        Jeffrey Siegal  <j[...](http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?_done=/group/sci.chem/browse_thread/thread/eb006886f818b28f/b7716f20eb58be25%3Fq%3DMartin%2BLewitt%2B%2522Federal%2BReserve%2522&msg=b7716f20eb58be25)            @quiotix.com>

wrote:
>David
Hatunen wrote:

          >> But then, *most* industries receive subidies of

one

          >> kind or another and you can't really pick on

agriculture in that

          >> regard. 
            >Possibly so, but that is questionable reasoning.

Industries can only be
>subsidized at the expense of other industries.

        Industry can also be subsidized at the expense of labor, and

not
just as slavery subsidized the cotton industry in the south.
The
Federal Reserve watches the “cost”
of labor and when it threatens

        to rise faster than productivity growth, it assumes this is 

        inflationary, and throttles back the economy until there is 

        more unemployment and labor is less "demanding".  It does 

        this DESPITE the fact that industry does not have the power 

        to raise prices due to global competition.  So essentially 

        the fed is determining the allocation of productivity 

        gains between labor and capital (profits).  Note, that the 

        fed is not concerned when there is a long period of 

        increased productivity, without any rise in wages, and 

        doesn't consider wages rising faster than productiviy 

        to just be balancing for past defecits. 
          >Which

industries are so

          >heavily taxed that they're paying for most other

industries to be

          >subsidized? 

Labor is heavily taxed, and most industries are subsidizing
government and defense contractors. Agriculture is probably
paying relatively less, due to tax benefits won through the
increased power (relative to population) of rural states in
the Senate and electoral college. – Martin

Personal, not work info: Martin E. Lewitt My
opinions are

        Domain: lew[...](http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?_done=/group/sci.chem/browse_thread/thread/eb006886f818b28f/b7716f20eb58be25%3Fq%3DMartin%2BLewitt%2B%2522Federal%2BReserve%2522&msg=b7716f20eb58be25)            @swcp.com        

P.O. Box 729 my own, not my

        Hm phone:  (505) 281-3248        Sandia Park, NM 87047-0729

employer’s.

[http://groups.google.com/group/sci.chem/browse_thread/thread/eb006886f818b28f/b7716f20eb58be25?q=Martin+Lewitt+%22Federal+Reserve%22#b7716f20eb58be25](http://groups.google.com/group/sci.chem/browse_thread/thread/eb006886f818b28f/b7716f20eb58be25?q=Martin+Lewitt+%22Federal+Reserve%22#b7716f20eb58be25)
···

On 9/30/2011 11:54 AM, Martin Lewitt wrote:

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Sep 30 1139 MDT]

  On 9/30/2011 11:33 AM, Richard Marken wrote:

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.1030)]

Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep 30 1047 MDT)–

              [From Rick Marken

(2011.09.30.0830)]\

                  Oh, shut up and take a look at this:



                  [http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday)



                  This is where your ignorant, reactionary,

anti-government policies have gotten us. What a
great contribution to society you are making. It
must feel great.

That chart represents a rather parochial view of “us”

    See, data is absolutely of no interest to you; you can brush it

off with no problem. If these graphs don’t infuriate you then
this must be a direction that is acceptable to you. There is
really nothing more to talk about.

  The data isn't news to me, but I was angry about the Federal

Reserve treating wage increases as inflationary when Greenspan was
doing this back in the 90s. I have always thought the market,
not central planners should allocate the returns from increased
productivity between capital and labor. I guess I’ve just had
longer to come to terms with it. The huge labor overhang from the
emerging third world would still have depressed some of the
returns to American labor, but that was only fair. In the long run
everybody would have been worse off under protectionism. But
what the Federal Reserve was doing taking sides was
unconscionable. I submit that even capital would have done
better without the quick trigger Federal Reserve tightening.

  -- regards,

       Martin L
    RSM

    --

    Richard S. Marken PhD

    rsmarken@gmail.com

    [www.mindreadings.com](http://www.mindreadings.com)

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.1120)]

Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep 30 1139 MDT)

Rick Marken (2011.09.30.1030)]

RM:" Oh, shut up and take a look at this:

                [http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday)




                This is where your ignorant, reactionary,

anti-government policies have gotten us. What a
great contribution to society you are making. It
must feel great.

            Rick Marken

(2011.09.30.0830)]
That chart represents a rather parochial view of “us”

  RM: See, data is absolutely of no interest to you; you can brush it

off with no problem. If these graphs don’t infuriate you then this
must be a direction that is acceptable to you. There is really
nothing more to talk about.

ML: The data isn't news to me, but I was angry about the Federal Reserve

treating wage increases as inflationary when Greenspan was doing
this back in the 90s.

Well, I guess I was wrong about there not being more to talk about;-)

Look at the chart more carefully. What changed in 1980, at exactly the same time that all these variables when south (from my perspective)? Was it a change at the Fed ? (no, Volker was still Fed chair); was it the release of the hostages in Iran? (possibly, but that didn’t really last until the present). What for sure changed was the election of a radical conservative president (who would now be considered an overly pragmatic middle of the roader) who implemented policies based on the idea that government and unions were the enemy and that lowering taxes would fix everything. Getting mad at the fed for this is like getting mad at FDR for creating the the great depression (oh, that’s right, you are mad at FDR for creating the great depression).

RSM

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

[Martin Lewitt 2011 Sep 30 1255 MDT]

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.1120)]

        Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep

30 1139 MDT)

Rick Marken (2011.09.30.1030)]

                            RM:" Oh, shut up and take a look at

this:

                            [http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday)



                            This is where your ignorant,

reactionary, anti-government policies
have gotten us. What a great
contribution to society you are making.
It must feel great.

                    Rick Marken (2011.09.30.0830)]\ That chart

represents a rather parochial view of “us”

              RM: See, data is absolutely of no interest to you; you

can brush it off with no problem. If these graphs
don’t infuriate you then this must be a direction that
is acceptable to you. There is really nothing more to
talk about.

        ML: The data isn't news to me, but I was angry about the

Federal Reserve treating wage increases as inflationary when
Greenspan was doing this back in the 90s.

      Well, I guess I was wrong about there not being more to talk

about;-)

      Look at the chart more carefully. What changed in 1980, at

exactly the same time that all these variables when south
(from my perspective)? Was it a change at the Fed ? (no,
Volker was still Fed chair); was it the release of the
hostages in Iran? (possibly, but that didn’t really last
until the present). What for sure changed was the election of
a radical conservative president (who would now be considered
an overly pragmatic middle of the roader) who implemented
policies based on the idea that government and unions were the
enemy and that lowering taxes would fix everything. Getting
mad at the fed for this is like getting mad at FDR for
creating the the great depression (oh, that’s right, you are
mad at FDR for creating the great depression).

Volcker was appointed in August of 1979 and by the time Reagan took

office, he had the recession well under way. Reagan had intended
to produce our way out of the inflation. Actually I considered him
an overly pragmatic middle of the roader back then. I was extremely
disappointed in him when advocated eliminating the double taxation
of dividends one day, but then withered under the resultant class
warfare rhetoric and backed down the very next day. Bush at least
was willing to stick to his principles, but even he had to settle
for only lowering the personal tax rate on dividends to 15%, leaving
the tax bias in favor of destablizing leverage in place.

Maybe someday we will get a radical conservative president and

control of Congress at the same time, and try free market policies
for once.

-- Martin L
···

On 9/30/2011 12:19 PM, Richard Marken wrote:

      RSM
  --

  Richard S. Marken PhD

  rsmarken@gmail.com

  [www.mindreadings.com](http://www.mindreadings.com)

[From Rick Marken (2011.09.30.1230)]

Martin Lewitt (2011 Sep 30 1255 MDT)_-

      RM: Look at the chart more carefully. What changed in 1980, at

exactly the same time that all these variables when south
(from my perspective)? Was it a change at the Fed ? (no,
Volker was still Fed chair); was it the release of the
hostages in Iran? (possibly, but that didn’t really last
until the present). What for sure changed was the election of
a radical conservative president (who would now be considered
an overly pragmatic middle of the roader) who implemented
policies based on the idea that government and unions were the
enemy and that lowering taxes would fix everything. Getting
mad at the fed for this is like getting mad at FDR for
creating the the great depression (oh, that’s right, you are
mad at FDR for creating the great depression).

Volcker was appointed in August of 1979 and by the time Reagan took

office, he had the recession well under way.

So it was the Fed that caused all of our problems since 1980? What was the Fed doing right from 1947 to 1979 that resulted in all those good results?

ML: Maybe someday we will get a radical conservative president and

control of Congress at the same time, and try free market policies
for once.

Would those free market policies produce results like (or even better than) those for 1947-1979? If so, why would you think so? What evidence do you have that this would be the case? Were the policies from 1947 - 1979 more free market than those from 1980 to the present? Was Reagan actually leading us away from free market policies?

RSM

···


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com