[From Bill Powers (960503.2145 MDT)]
Stefan Balke (960503.1020 CET) --
Balke:
... how can you be sure whether you are just inventing a
rationalization or whether you really raised your consciousness
(going up a level) in order to see the higher order perception?
Powers:
Are you really interested in getting an answer to your question?
Balke:
Yes, of course.
If I interpret your words correctly, you are saying that when you asked
the question, there was in fact a desire to know the answer inside of
you. I assume that your reply above was not automatic, but arose from
being actually aware of a desire to know the answer, which you then
reported to me. Is this correct? I assume, since I have not yet answered
your question, that you still feel that desire to know my answer. Is
that true as you read these words?
Powers:
That is, do you really want to know how we can be sure, or is this
just a way of expressing a sense of skepticism?
BAlke:
I think that it would be a great help, if we could be sure on this
point, because it would lead to a greater understanding of ourselfs
and a closer touch to reality, but I'm also skeptical whether it
would be possible to make a clear distinction between inventing a
rationalization and "raising" consciousness (going up a level) so
that we can "look down".
So you're telling me that when you examine what is happening as you wait
for my answer, you find that you're thinking on the one hand that an
answer would lead to greater understanding, and on the other hand that
it may not be possible to "go up a level" and "look down" on what you
are doing. Is this a fair description of what you are experiencing?
Also, in your original question, you asked how we could be sure is
something really happened or if we just rationalized an interpretation.
Does this mean that you were feeling unsure about this? If so, can you
describe this sense of unsureness in more detail (i.e., not what it is
that you are unsure about, but how it feels to be unsure)?
Later on in your post, you expand on the concept of not being sure:
The main question seems to be, how I can detect self-cheating.
Is this something you are concerned about in yourself? If so, could you
say more about this concern? Does it occur in many situations? Is it a
very serious concern, or only a peripheral one?
I promise that I will try to answer your question, but before I do, I
think that the information I am asking for would help in making my
answer clearer.
···
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Martin Taylor 960503 13:15 --
RE: Lighter than air.
Martin, after that gentlemanly explanation, I would not be so rude as to
play the boy with the airgun. As you suspected, I do not follow your
argument, nor do I agree with your translation from the computational
model into terms of human perceptions and thought processes (except
insofar as your argument is in itself a valid example of the forms human
thought processes can take).
If you and Peter find common ground in this way, then there is at least
one person who understands what you're up to. Since I can't play the
same game, it would be pointless for me to make any judgment of your
propositions -- I couldn't make it by the rules under which you and
Peter are playing. Perhaps I could have done so once, but I think I have
forgotten how.
So I'm happy that you have someone to talk to who can understand you,
and also happy to leave you to it until the time comes that we find a
meeting place.
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Best to all,
Bill P.