Gavin Ritz (2008.02.04.16.20NZT)
So what makes you think there is anything such as Group Control, in the
sense of a Group that has fields of responsibility and is an institution
with goals or philosophies.
Regards
Gavin
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
[mailto:CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Marken
Sent: Monday, 4 February 2008 11:30 a.m.
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: PCT aspirin (down the group behavior path)
[From Rick Marken (2008.02.03.1430)]
Bill Powers (2008.01.02.1159 MST)--
Even when people cooperate to control something, the net result is simply
a
virtual control system controlling the same variable each person is trying
to control. It's not a new level of control as long as all the people are
trying to control approximately the same perception.
So what does constitute group control that is not simply an average over
a
lot of individual control processes? We ought to be able to say what makes
the difference.
You got me. I still think the closed loop approach to economics based
on aggregate variables is reasonable. But I'm not highly motivated to
continue it at the moment given the reception is got from you on the
left and the apologists of conventional economics on the right.
Best
Rick
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
[From Rick Marken (2008.02.04.0830)]
Gavin Ritz (2008.02.04.16.20NZT)
So what makes you think there is anything such as Group Control, in the
sense of a Group that has fields of responsibility and is an institution
with goals or philosophies.
I presume you are asking me. Actually, I don't think there is Group
Control in this sense. I think there are individuals with goals and
philosophies of their own who agree to join together into a group and
coordinate their efforts (by assigning each other fields of
responsibility, among other things) to produce results that could not
be produced by any individual alone, as is the case with a musical
ensemble, for example.
Best
Rick
···
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
[From Fred Nickols (2008.02.04.1133 MT)]
[From Rick Marken (2008.02.04.0830)]
> Gavin Ritz (2008.02.04.16.20NZT)
>
> So what makes you think there is anything such as Group Control, in the
> sense of a Group that has fields of responsibility and is an institution
> with goals or philosophies.
I presume you are asking me. Actually, I don't think there is Group
Control in this sense. I think there are individuals with goals and
philosophies of their own who agree to join together into a group and
coordinate their efforts (by assigning each other fields of
responsibility, among other things) to produce results that could not
be produced by any individual alone, as is the case with a musical
ensemble, for example.
I think I get what you're saying and I think I agree with you. But, consider this: Some modern music CDs are in fact the result of recording individual artists, both musicians and vocalists, and then mixing the individual performances in a studio. Any "coordination" seems limited to an agreement to keep to the written music and "control" over the end product seems vested in the mixer.
Regards,
···
--
Fred Nickols
Toolmaker to Knowledge Workers
www.skullworks.com
nickols@att.net
[From Rick Marken (2008.02.04.1250)]
Fred Nickols (2008.02.04.1133 MT)--
I think I get what you're saying and I think I agree with you. But,
consider this: Some modern music CDs are in fact the result of
recording individual artists, both musicians and vocalists, and then
mixing the individual performances in a studio. Any "coordination"
seems limited to an agreement to keep to the written music and
"control" over the end product seems vested in the mixer.
To the extent that the mixer is really just putting together
individual tracks then the resulting mix is not what I would call a
group result; it's a result of one person (the mixer) controlling for
a mix of elements that happen to have been created by different
people. Same is true when a person overdubs themselves. Paul
McCartney's first solo album was actually a group album with him
playing all the parts. But the "group result" was produced by one
person so it's really not a group result, anymore than it is a group
result when I play a two-part invention on the piano; the two parts (a
"group result") are both being played by one person, me;-)
If you've ever played in a musical group you know the satisfaction
that can be obtained from group control; where individual, independent
controllers cooperatively control (play their instruments to blend
appropriately with the others) to produce a group result (the music)
that satisfies everyone in the group.
Best
Rick
···
--
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com