Help!

[From Rick Marken (940924.1215)]

Francisco (930923)

As for Rick M., well, I like him.

Thanks, Francisco. I like you, too !!

Stop complaining about his "bad manners".

Actually, I haven't heard any complaints about bad manners lately. I
think Hans (and possibly Oded) tried to make fun of me in recent posts,
but I didn't mind; their statements really just embarassed themselves,
in the eyes of those who understand PCT, anyway.

I don't know why I still get singled out as the "bad boy" of CSG-L. I
think I've been pretty tame lately, and, besides, I don't think it's fair
to Tom Bourbon and Mary Powers, who have made great strides toward
bad boy (or girl) - hood in the past few months.

I think one problem is that I am always there (usually along with Tom,
Bill and Mary) pointing out errors in people's representations of PCT.
I'm sure this must be annoying, especially to the people who are making
these errors and misrepresentations as a (probably unconscious) means
of defending perceptual variables from the effects of disturbances created by
certain aspects of PCT. What I find puzzling (or disappointing) is that
so few people (besides the fab 4) on the net are moved to correct these errors
and misinterpretations themselves. Of the 130 or so people subscribed to
this net, there must be more than four who understand the basics of
PCT. Why weren't there 30 or 40 replies (besides the two from Tom
and myself) to Martin Taylor's comment that "NO data will be accepted as
valid in this discussion group unless it was collected by a PCT-
accredited individual using The Test"? Why hasn't there been a
torrent replies to Hans Blom about "accidental side effects" instead of
the three from (who else) Mary, Bill and myself?

I know that there are many ideas to be debated on CSG-L; and I'm not
suggesting that everyone should agree about everything. But there
are some fundamental facts of PCT; people who have been studying
PCT for 2 or more years should certainly have these down pretty pat
by now and should be able to see when people are making claims about
PCT that are just not correct.

We're not going to be able to make much progress in PCT if people can't
(or won't) get the basics. I would sure feel a lot more comfortable
about the future of PCT (and a lot less like a PCT "policeman") if there
were a lot more people out there doing what Tom, Bill, Mary and I are
doing -- pointing out basic misconceptions about PCT when they presented
authoitatively on CSG-L. If this were the sci.evolution list and someone said
"the evidence shows that all creatures were created as described in genesis"
I suspect that there would be more than 4 people explaining why this is not
the case.

How about some help, fellow PCTers?

Best

Rick

<[Bill Leach 940924.23:14 EST(EDT)]

[Rick Marken (940924.1215)]

What I find puzzling (or disappointing) is that so few people (besides
the fab 4) on the net are moved to correct these errors and
misinterpretations themselves.

Welllll, I can think of several reasons. The first, (in my case anyway)
is that when trying to deal with almost 50 mail messages in "one shot"
one tends to be very sloppy. A second reason is that I think most of the
rest of us tend to be a bit "timid" at times. I don't really think that
I personally am particularly timid. I have been willing on many
occassions to "take a shot" at something that I thought was wrong from a
PCT perspective about someone else's statement.

To my pleasent surprise, I have not suffered any untold ills from the
attempt even when I was clearly wrong (indeed I might have even learned a
thing or two).

Of the 130 or so people subscribed to this net, there must be more than
four who understand the basics of PCT.

Hopefully but I am sure that many of us that think that we do understand
the basics of PCT are often in awe of how little we understand the
implications of that basic knowledge.

How about some help, fellow PCTers?

We'll keep trying though other duties call now and then <g>

I can't help but feel also that at times we (or at least many of us) tend
to "zero in on" a particular statement and then ignore the essential
elements of communication that was being attempted. I know that I have
both done this and "suffered" from having it done to a posting of my own.

-bill

[From Oded Maler (940926)]

(Rick Marken (940924.1215):

* Actually, I haven't heard any complaints about bad manners lately. I
* think Hans (and possibly Oded) tried to make fun of me in recent posts,
* but I didn't mind; their statements really just embarassed themselves,
* in the eyes of those who understand PCT, anyway.

and before:

True. My goal is understanding control; Locke's goal is getting professional
recognition.

I don't see things this way. Charity begins at home, and your
perception of what you are controlling for is not less subjective than
any perception (as PCT tells us), and in fact, since it's a very
abstract (high-level) controlled variable ("to understand what
behavior really is") it is far more subjective than lower-level
perecetions.

I Accept the critique of "established" and "well-funded" science,
under whose name a tremendous amount of bullshit is published, (as
long as one plays according the convention) and important issues are
swept under the carpet. On the other hand, there are inherent
provincial defficiencies in a small group of outsiders. Like any other
group, there are implicit assumptions on what is important and what is
not. There is also a very crude classification of the outside
scientific world, which is based in a very "PCT-centric" world view.
These "collective" (a funny term for a handful of people) perceptual
constructs were shaped thru a certain experience (e.g., struggling
with "real" psychology) and like any other perceptual variables they
have their advantages and limitations.

I appreciate many insights coming from PCT, and like Bruce B., I am
particularily interested in its implications on epistemology. I am
also impressed by its demonstration of simple controllers for 2-3
level systems. On the other hand I am aware of the fact that it (PCT)
neglects the complexities of the external environment (much the same
as behviorism neglests the internals of the person), and that almost
*nothing* is understood about higher levels (the emergence of symbols,
language, reasoning, etc, which IMHO represents a qualitative change
with respect to all the operational principles). Hence I would be much
more tolerant toward research works and models that fail to pass the
internal PCT criteria (being S-R, statistics, cannot be drawn as a PCT
diagram - to mention a few commonly-read types of dismissal) but still
provide some information (sic!) about the world, let it be a
psychophysical experiment, a mathematical analysis of a given dynamical
system, or a digression about the philosophy of meaning.

Hope it is not too much of a self-embarassement,

Regards,

--Oded

···

--

Oded Maler, VERIMAG, Miniparc ZIRST, 38330 Montbonnot, France
Phone: 76909635 Fax: 76413620 e-mail: Oded.Maler@imag.fr

[From Rick Marken (940926.1545)]

Oded Maler (940926) --

Me:

My goal is understanding control; Locke's goal is getting professional
recognition.

Oded:

your perception of what you are controlling for is not less subjective than
any perception

I know that "understanding control" refers to the state of a perception that
I am controlling. I just assume that this can go without saying since, as a
control theorist, I am aware of the fact that "it's all perception". I don't
really know whether "getting professional recognition" is a good way to
characterize any of Locke's controlled perceptions; I just meant that Locke
is clearly controlling perceptual variables that differ from the ones I am
controlling. I know this because of the way Locke responded to the
"distrubances" created by communications from Bill and Mary Powers.

Like any other group, there are implicit assumptions on what is important
and what is not.

Yes. No question. We implicitly assume that understanding the fact that
people control their own perceptual experience is important; we think that
the results of statictical studies are not.

These "collective" (a funny term for a handful of people) perceptual
constructs were shaped thru a certain experience (e.g., struggling
with "real" psychology) and like any other perceptual variables they
have their advantages and limitations.

The most important "perceptual construct" in PCT is the working, hierarchical
model of perceptual control. This was not shaped by struggles with
conventional psychologists. It was recoognized as the only known explanation
of an ignored phenomenon -- the phenomenon of purposeful behavior, also known
as control.

On the other hand I am aware of the fact that it (PCT) neglects the
complexities of the external environment

What gives you that idea? In fact, it seems to me that it is precisely
because PCT takes them into account that we get to the realization that the
only way purposeful behavior could work in the face of these complexities is
via closed loop control of perceptual functions of this environment.

and that almost *nothing* is understood about higher levels (the emergence
of symbols, language, reasoning, etc, which IMHO represents a qualitative
change with respect to all the operational principles).

I think we know a bit more than nothing about higher levels (look at my
"Hierarchical behavior of perception" paper in Closed Loop, for example). But
I agree that not nearly enough has been done in terms of the study of
language -- an area that, since it deals with symbols, seems to preoccupy
the attention of the digitally oriented behavioral scientists of an AI
persuasion. But what do these non-PCT approaches explain about language
that PCT doesn't -- or couldn't?

Hence I would be much more tolerant toward research works and models that
fail to pass the internal PCT criteria (being S-R, statistics, cannot be
drawn as a PCT diagram - to mention a few commonly-read types of dismissal)
but still provide some information (sic!) about the world

This isn't a matter of "tolerance". I don't "hate" statistics, for example.
There is just no way I can use this information to help me control the
(admittedly subjective) perception I am controlling -- the percpetion of a
working model that behaves like an individual carrying out some purpose.
I'm sure there are statistical studies that give interesting information
about the world -- as Tom said, polling data is pretty interesting. But this
is not related to what I am interested in when I am doing PCT -- which is
controlling for (a perception) of understanding individual purposeful
behavior.

Best

Rick

Tom Bourbon [940927.1542]

Jumping in on a conversation:

[From Rick Marken (940926.1545)]

Oded Maler (940926) --

. . .

Oded:

Like any other group, there are implicit assumptions on what is important
and what is not.

Rick:

Yes. No question. We implicitly assume that understanding the fact that
people control their own perceptual experience is important; we think that
the results of statictical studies are not.

Agreed, Rick. There is nothing _implicit_ about our focus on the phenomenon
of control; we make it as explicit as we can. When we identify an
occurrence of control, we are equally explicit in our attempts to model it
with PCT. All of that being so, it follows directly that data gathered in
traditional statistical studies and in conventional tests of the null
hypothesis are of little use to us, hence they are of little interest to us.
Can we be any more explicit than that?

I also agree with Rick's reply to your remarks on,

. . . perceptual
constructs were shaped thru a certain experience (e.g., struggling
with "real" psychology);

and

. . . (PCT) neglects the
complexities of the external environment

so I'll say nothing more on that.

. . .

Hence I would be much more tolerant toward research works and models that
fail to pass the internal PCT criteria (being S-R, statistics, cannot be
drawn as a PCT diagram - to mention a few commonly-read types of dismissal)
but still provide some information (sic!) about the world

This isn't a matter of "tolerance". I don't "hate" statistics, for example.
There is just no way I can use this information to help me control the
(admittedly subjective) perception I am controlling -- the percpetion of a
working model that behaves like an individual carrying out some purpose.
I'm sure there are statistical studies that give interesting information
about the world -- as Tom said, polling data is pretty interesting. But this
is not related to what I am interested in when I am doing PCT -- which is
controlling for (a perception) of understanding individual purposeful
behavior.

Oded (and all other defenders of the cult of statistical holiness ;-), it
isn't a matter of tolerance. If I want to know the proportion of Americans
who eat peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast, I not only tolerate, but I
_desire_, descriptive statistical data from a poll or survey. I want to
know that the poll was conducted in close adherence to all required
constraints and procedures. If the poll takers violate the rules, I do not
trust their results; I reject them.

The majority of statistical studies in behavioral science depend on
procedures that were developed for poll-taking, but in nearly every
application of those procedures in behavioral science, the rules are broken.
When they are, I reject the results. But there is more. Polling procedures
were designed so that it is impossible to know about individual pollees,
hence it is impossible to say anything at all (unless you want to make a fool
of yourself) about any individual pollee. When behavioral scientists
(a) use polling procedures in research on individuals and (b) break the
basic rules along the way, what can I do but reject their claims about how
_individuals_ behaved and why _individuals_ behaved that way? Perhaps I
_could_ say, "Great work! Keep it up! We can really learn a lot about
control from your data!", but even joking about that option makes me feel
bad.

It isn't a matter of tolerance. It's a matter of building a science.

Later,

Tom

[From : Oded Maler (940929)]

(Tom Bourbon):

Me:

* >> Hence I would be much more tolerant toward research works and models that
* >> fail to pass the internal PCT criteria (being S-R, statistics, cannot be
* >> drawn as a PCT diagram - to mention a few commonly-read types of dismissal)
* >> but still provide some information (sic!) about the world

Tom:

* Oded (and all other defenders of the cult of statistical holiness ;-), it
* isn't a matter of tolerance. If I want to know the proportion of Americans
* who eat peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast, I not only tolerate, but I
* _desire_, descriptive statistical data from a poll or survey. I want to
* know that the poll was conducted in close adherence to all required
* constraints and procedures. If the poll takers violate the rules, I do not
* trust their results; I reject them.

[...]

* It isn't a matter of tolerance. It's a matter of building a science.

I am to blame for creating the statistical straw man - unlike you I
"hate" statistics and I mentioned it in the list of dismissals just
to be complete - it is not what I was going to defend.

What I mean to say is that what thoshands of people are doing in, what
I can roughly term as "cognitive neurosciences" which includes motor
control, vision, speech recognition (including the more theoretical
foundantional aspects such as dynamical systems, organizational
principles, information) is not non-sense and useless just because it
is not based on PCT terminology and principles. A neuron is a neuron,
a muscle is a muscle and a phoneme "is" a phoneme, and anybody who
studies some of their properties is advancing our state of knowledge.
And PCT models *do* neglect the complexity of the environment (the
most complex modeling of the environment is, I think, in Little Man)
and as such they do not explain why these control systems do succeed
in the real world (or, you may claim that this question is a wrong
one, but this is again epistemology and it must be explicitly stated).

Note that I do not belong to this body of science I have just
"defended", and for my sake, I would feel much more comfortable to
assume that they are doing useless work, and I don't miss anything by
not being part of them.

As for the internal tolerance for bullshit in scientific community,
it is not a unique feature of established science, but a general
social phenomenon that can be found *everywhere*.

Regards

--Oded

···

--

Oded Maler, VERIMAG, Miniparc ZIRST, 38330 Montbonnot, France
Phone: 76909635 Fax: 76413620 e-mail: Oded.Maler@imag.fr

[Martin Taylor 940929 10:30]

Tom Bourbon [940927.1542]

Rick Marken (940926.1545)

Yes. No question. We implicitly assume that understanding the fact that
people control their own perceptual experience is important; we think that
the results of statictical studies are not.

Agreed, Rick. There is nothing _implicit_ about our focus on the phenomenon
of control; we make it as explicit as we can. When we identify an
occurrence of control, we are equally explicit in our attempts to model it
with PCT. All of that being so, it follows directly that data gathered in
traditional statistical studies and in conventional tests of the null
hypothesis are of little use to us, hence they are of little interest to us.

There are very good reasons for rejecting "conventional tests of the null
hypothesis." Long before I had heard of PCT, I was promoting one criterion
for judging a psychological paper: if it mentioned (p<.???) I would be
very wary. The ONLY thing such a test can tell you is whether your
experiment is sensitive enough to detect a difference that most assuredly
exists. The question one should ask (staying within the S-R mode of thought
of the authors) is not "is there an effect" but "what is the most probable
size of the effect, how sure am I of the size of the effect, and is an
effect of that size interesting?"

A more valid complaint, which separates PCT-specific studies from others,
is the search for the controlled perception. However, good, reliable
and (I think) useful data can be obtained on the components of control
loops, without studying the whole control loop in action. When an
electronic engineer wants to examine an unknown control system, one
way is to break the feedback connection and examine the S-R behaviour
of the broken loop. Likewise, I think, with living control systems, one
should usefully be able to examine the S-R action of a system and draw
some conclusions about the behaviour of a control loop that incorporates
the tested components.

When I mentioned Rick's old comment of "good data, bad theory" last week,
a comment that he then disavowed, I was thinking of some early 1960's
studies on the perception of ambiguous figures of several different kinds.
One kind, for example, occurs when you ask the subject to listen to a
short tape loop containing some phrase like "splendid gladiola" (one of
the ones we used). If you get the subject to report what is heard, it
changes erratically over time. Now, when you plot the number of changes
against the number of different things heard, you get a very precise
relationship: the number of changes is proportional to n(n-1), where
n is the number of types. Often, this relationship is so close that
you need a big graph in order to plot the points as visibly different
from the curve. And the same relationship holds for visual figures like
the Necker Cube (if people haven't been trained to believe that only two
percepts are possible), to patterns of visual movement, and I forget
what else. These are powerful and consistent effects.

Another related study used a visual pattern that most people see in only
two forms (and believe me, such images are VERY hard to find). It consisted
of a (real, not photographed) side-lit piece of plasticene whose flat
surface had been dented many times with a ping-pong ball. When you look
at it, you see either a dented or a bubbly surface, and the two possibilities
flip very precisely at uncontrollable moments (at least, some people say
that they can control the flip for a few moments, but nobody has claimed
to manage to do so for long). When you analyze the time between flips,
you get what is called a "survival curve," which depicts the probability
that a flip has not happened, given that it is n msec since any given flip.

The survival curves are often different for the bubbly and for the dented
surface, and have a shape that cannot be accounted for by any simple theory
of "fatigue" (a dormitive principle if ever there was one!). Also, the
shapes of the survival curves change rather abruptly and dramatically from
time to time. We found that the survival curves and their dramatic changes
could be fitted quite accurately (without statistics) by a random walk
model, which said that there are exactly K perceiving units, each of which
independently decides whether the image is of bumps or of dents, and a
single decision unit that provides the overt perception of bubbles or
dents based on a biased majority decision with history. In other words,
if more than B units said "bubble," that's what the perception was, and
if less than D units (D<B) said "bubble," dents would be seen, and if the
number of units was between D and B, what was seen was whatever had previously
been seen. The number K turned out to be something like 28 for one subject,
and something like 32 or 33 (it changed during the week of experimentation)
for another. The abrupt changes in the survivorship curve could always
be accounted for by a shift of exactly 1 unit in either B or D (and, I
think once both of them).

These results seemed both rather precise and hard to "model" in other ways we
could think of. We did not do any statistical tests, largely because we
couldn't think of any valid tests to do! But we felt then, and feel now,
that the data were sufficiently bizarre and the model sufficiently simple
that I am prepared to bet that the two subjects did indeed have 28 and 32
or 33 units working on that perception.

Another related "fact(?)" is that in a large variety of different perceptual
phenomena involving prolonged observation, a major index of performance
changes linearly with the square root of the time since the start of the
observation. Again, no statistics, but the trend lines are awfully close
to a slope of 0.5 on a log-log plot. Some of these involve data combined
over subjects, some don't.

The point I am making is that both in principle and in practice, not
all research contributing to the understanding of perceptual control systems
need involve studying the control system in action. That has, of course,
to be the final arbiter of what people "do," but to study the components
of control systems in isolation is also valid and useful.

Complaints against statistics should be directed against improper uses of
statistics (e.g. any "significance test," or a generalization from a trend
found in a set of everages to an implied average of a set of trends).

Martin

<[Bill Leach 941001.11:00 EST(EDT)]

[Oded Maler (940929)]

What I mean to say is that what thoshands of people are doing in, what
I can roughly term as "cognitive neurosciences" which includes motor
control, vision, speech recognition (including the more theoretical
foundantional aspects such as dynamical systems, organizational
principles, information) is not non-sense and useless just because it
is not based on PCT terminology and principles.

I even doubt that many will assert flatly that what you assert is false.
I think that what Tom and others are saying is that because such research
is normally based upon foundational principles concerning behaviour that
are fundamentally wrong:

1. Conclusions from such research are often incorrect or irrelevent
    (particularly to the extent that such conclusions are consistant with
    the incorrect foundational principles).

2. The information NOT collected or NOT observed is vital to obtaining
    useful research data and that the reason this happens is again due to
    incorrect assumptions concerning the phenonemnon of behaviour.

-bill

<[Bill Leach 941001.18:51 EST(EDT)]

[Martin Taylor 940929 10:30]

When an electronic engineer wants to examine an unknown control system,
one way is to break the feedback connection and examine the S-R
behaviour of the broken loop.

I'm having a little trouble with this one. I will admit to having done
what you say but I think the nature of the "information" obtained may be
a bit different than seems to be implied. With the feedback loop broken,
the control loop typically becomes "bi-stable" but one is, at least
occassionally, interested in the extremes of output. Sometimes it is
even useful to apply a bias inplace of or inaddition to the normal
feedback path.

Likewise, I think, with living control systems, one should usefully be
able to examine the S-R action of a system and draw some conclusions
about the behaviour of a control loop that incorporates the tested
components.

I think that the foregoing is true and is essentially something that Bill
P. has stated several times but he also points out that the information
is trivial once one knows the perception under control. Indeed, the
behaviour is almost irrelevent.

The point I am making is that both in principle and in practice, not all
research contributing to the understanding of perceptual control systems
need involve studying the control system in action. That has, of
course, to be the final arbiter of what people "do," but to study the
components of control systems in isolation is also valid and useful.

And I should imagine that we all will agree with this. It is just
unfortunate that control system information is often not obtained in such
work when frequently it might have been so easy to do so.

-bill