# Information (big i), social control

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/information-big-i-social-control/5646>\
**Category:** CSG1993\
**Created:** [June 22, 1993, 3:31pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/information-big-i-social-control/5646 "1993-06-22T15:31:09Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 1\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marken\_Richard\_S1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Marken\_Richard\_S1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Marken_Richard_S1)\
**Post date:** [June 22, 1993, 3:31pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/information-big-i-social-control/5646/1 "1993-06-22T15:31:09Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (930622.0830)]

I said:

> I was trying to guess why you think there is information in  
> perception.

Bill Powers (930621.1600 MDT) replies:

> If information is defined as log(R/r), where R is the range of  
> fluctuation of a signal and r is the least discernible change in  
> the signal, then there is information in the perception. It can  
> be calculated in bits per second. This measure does not represent  
> knowledge; it is not "about" something.

Yeah. That's the kind of information there is in perception. In fact,  
there's all kinds of things like that crammed into perception. There  
is not only Information (big i) in perception, but there is average,  
median, variance, kurtosis, etc.

> Martin and Allen are saying there is Information in the  
> perceptual signal. You are saying there is no information in the  
> perceptual signal. You are both right. You cannot get information  
> from Information.

Yes. This could have been solved long ago if Martin had just sent  
back the value of log(R/r) associated with the perceptual signal I  
sent. Then I would have seen the Information in that perception. It  
would have been something like 2.643856 (assuming log2).

Tom Bourbon (930622.0817) --

This post should be required reading for everyone (like myself)  
who was ever tempted to believe in "collective controlled  
variables". Very clear. I think this "collective controlled  
variables" topic is extremely important. The appearance of  
a "common reference level" in cooperative control is extremely  
seductive -- as seductive as the idea that there is information  
(small i) in perception.

Best

Rick