Kibbitzing

[From Rick Marken (950620.1200)]

Bill Powers (950618.1430 MDT) --

So what selects the club? The consequence of drifting in the wind or
falling short, or THE PLAYER? I contend that it is the player who
does the selecting ...

Hans Blom (950620)--

Watch out, this is a rat's nest...Discussions about "causes" and "effects"
can be found in philosophy, but not with well-defined results.

Um. Bill was talking about _selection_ Hans, not cause and effect.

Bill Powers (950618.1430 MDT) --

The behavior of a golf ball is just not the sort of thing that can "select."

Hans Blom (950620)--

Why not? If the player is perfect (his world-model has fully con-
verged), and even if he is not, he is purely REACTIVE: the (per-
ception of the) environment dictates what he is going to do.

A golfer is purely REACTIVE? Not in my world-model;-)

In the case of a golf ball, you accept determinism. In organ-
isms, you do not. I wonder why.

Wonder no more. The cause-effect relationships in a control system occur
in a closed-loop.

Bill Powers (950620.1235 MDT)--

Among proponents of Skinner's interpretations, I see nothing in the way
of seeking independent confirmation. Instead what I see is a continual
effort to show that the proffered explanations would indeed predict what
we observe. If some difficulty arises, like data that don't seem to jibe
with the basic picture, the reaction is simply to start manipulating the
basic variables of reinforcement theory until a combination is found
that will lead to at least a qualitative approximation of what is
observed. Since in most situations many variables can be identified,
showing many different relationships to behavior, one can always find a
variable to play the role of the reinforcer or the discriminative
stimulus, and that is usually sufficient to construct a plausible
explanation -- one that fits what was observed.

What I don't see is any attempt to challenge the theory -- to ask how we
could verify by some means other than pointing to the phenomenon to be
explained that a reinforcing effect occurred, or that a discriminative
stimulus was in fact detected by the nervous system of the organism. The
general attitude I find is that no other interpretation of the
observations is even conceivable within a scientific framework.

Ah. Great minds (Rick Marken (950620.1030)) think alike;-)

Best

Rick