# Learn from the "Behavior Is Control " Spreadsheet (was Re: Comman and Control)

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learn-from-the-behavior-is-control-spreadsheet-was-re-comman-and-control/6255>\
**Category:** CSG2015\
**Created:** [October 28, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learn-from-the-behavior-is-control-spreadsheet-was-re-comman-and-control/6255 "2015-10-28T21:01:07Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 5\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/user_avatar/discourse.iapct.org/rsmarken/32/3553_2.png) [@rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/rsmarken)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learn-from-the-behavior-is-control-spreadsheet-was-re-comman-and-control/6255/1 "2015-10-28T21:01:07Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.28.1400)]

> **···**
>
> > Martin Taylor (2015.10.28.08.54)–
> 
> > ```
> > BH: So
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > if you and Rick don’t understand difference between  
> > »Behavior is Control« and »Behavior : The Control of  
> > perception«, you wil have to read B:CP again to  
> > understand PCT.
> > 
> > ```
> > MT: I'm sorry you didn't understand my attempt to point out one subtlety
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > of the English language that is the reason for an arcane dispute  
> > between Rick and me.
> 
> RM: The dispute is not arcane but fundamental. According to you, “behavior” refers to “…the means by which the controller acts on the environment to influence the perception”. This is not the “behavior” Bill was talking about in the section of LCS I (pp. 171-176) that I was hoping you and others would read. Nor is it the “behavior” that is being referred to by behavioral scientists. As Bill points out in that section of LCS I, the events we call “behavior” are _consequences_ of acts on the environment (the acts you call “behavior”). So “Opening the Car Door” is a description of a consequence of the muscle force “acts” (combined with environmental forces) that influence the angle of the door relative to the car. By your definition the only “behavior” that is occurring when a person opens a car door is the muscle force that influences this result.
> 
> RM: Another problem with defining “behavior” as you do is that it treats “behavior” as a description of a component of a theory (PCT) rather than as a description of the phenomenon that the theory is meant to explain. Saying that “behavior” refers to the actions that influence a perception is not an observation because we can’t see that perceptions are being influenced; so your definition of “behavior” is theoretical rather than objective. This is a particular problem when the theory that is the basis of your definition of “behavior” is PCT. This is because, according to PCT it is not only “acts on the environment” that are seen as “behavior”; the reference states of the environmental consequences of those acts – what are called “controlled quantities” in PCT – are also seen as “behavior”. So, as noted above, the varying reference state of the angle of the door (the quantity controlled when opening the door) is seen as the behavior “opening then door” just as much as are the muscle forces (pushing and pulling) that influence this result.
> 
> RM: Indeed, that’s the point of the “Behavior as Control” (now re-dubbed the Behavior Is Control") spreadsheet. It shows that the words that describe “behaviors”, like “Opening a door” or “Pulling on the door”, are referring to both controlled variables (and their associated reference states) and the means used to achieve them (the latter being the only aspect of behavior that you want to refer to as “behavior”).
> 
> RM: The point of the spreadsheet is to give a _theory free_ description of various activities that are called "behavior’s. The goal is to familiarize people with the phenomenon that PCT was developed to explain – control. Powers brilliant analysis on pp. 171-176 of LCS I shows that the basic subject matter of the behavioral sciences – “behavior” – is not what it has been thought to be. It is not an emitted output; it is not a caused action; it is not a caused consequences of actions; it is not a “show put on for the benefit of an observer”. It is control.
> 
> RM: Behavior IS control because it can be seen to involve maintaining **variables** is **reference states** by acting appropriately (using the necessary **means** ) to produce this result in the face of **disturbances**. There is no theory needed to see that behavior is control. The fact that a particular behavior is control can be determined experimentally (using the Test) and objectively defined in terms of observable relationships between variables. But you can also get a good feel for the idea that behavior is control by reading pp. 171-176 in LCS I, carefully studying Table 1 on p 172 and, most important, trying to add your own examples of behavior to my expansion of Table 1, p 172 as the “Behavior Is Control” spreadsheet.
> 
> RM: I think it’s very important to understand that behavior is control, in fact, not just in theory, because I think this is where PCT and all other theories of behavior are talking past each other. PCT is the only theory that aims to explain behavior as what it is: a process of control. In order to be a serious student of PCT one has to know that the “behavior” that PCT aims to explain is not the “behavior” that all other theories in the behavioral sciences are trying to explain. PCT explains behavior as control; all other theories explain behavior as caused output.
> 
> RM: So I highly recommend adding some behaviors to the “Behavior is Control” spreadsheet and analyzing them into controlled variables, reference states, means and disturbances to get a feeling for the phenomenon that PCT explains.
> 
> RM: Remember, phenomena phirst!!
> 
> Best
> 
> Rick
> 
> –  
> Richard S. Marken
> 
> [www.mindreadings.com](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mindreadings.com&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=HcmbREU04_H7jT6DK0hRlsYPy-8xedHwbI4YsdekJQg&s=38qLR5jN12L7To-rtbVj7Vy_tQEsEdVgZs15VQ2YhC0&e=)  
> Author of [Doing Research on Purpose](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_Doing-2DResearch-2DPurpose-2DExperimental-2DPsychology_dp_0944337554_ref-3Dsr-5F1-5F1-3Fie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1407342866-26sr-3D8-2D1-26keywords-3Ddoing-2Bresearch-2Bon-2Bpurpose&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=HcmbREU04_H7jT6DK0hRlsYPy-8xedHwbI4YsdekJQg&s=_YfxVwpfeQL4G-tyIekRDWQYqXmjK63jNqtTSG8V2vI&e=).  
> Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![MartinT](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/ee7513/32.png) [@MartinT](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/MartinT)\
**Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learn-from-the-behavior-is-control-spreadsheet-was-re-comman-and-control/6255/2 "2015-10-29T13:10:24Z")

</div>

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.29.00.05]

> [From Rick Marken (2015.10.28.1400)]

```
I'm impressed by the way you can redefine what I say so as to be

```

able to make a long posting to show I am wrong. It’s a well  
developed skill, but not, I think, one well used to advance the  
science of PCT.

```
And so, on a redefinition of what I say, you can hang an essay.

Martin

```

> **···**
>
> > ```
> > Martin Taylor
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > (2015.10.28.08.54)–
> 
> > ```
> > BH:
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > So if you and Rick don’t understand difference between  
> > »Behavior is Control« and »Behavior : The Control of  
> > perception«, you wil have to read B:CP again to  
> > understand PCT.
> > 
> > ```
> > MT: I'm sorry you didn't understand my attempt to point
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > out one subtlety of the English language that is the  
> > reason for an arcane dispute between Rick and me.
> 
> ```
> RM: The dispute is not arcane but fundamental.
> 
> ```
> 
> According to you, “behavior” refers to “…the means by  
> which the controller acts on the environment to influence  
> the perception”. This is not the “behavior” Bill was  
> talking about in the section of LCS I (pp. 171-176) that I  
> was hoping you and others would read. Nor is it the  
> “behavior” that is being referred to by behavioral  
> scientists. As Bill points out in that section of LCS I,  
> the events we call “behavior” are _consequences_ of  
> acts on the environment (the acts you call “behavior”). So  
> “Opening the Car Door” is a description of a consequence  
> of the muscle force “acts” (combined with environmental  
> forces) that influence the angle of the door relative to  
> the car. By your definition the only “behavior” that is  
> occurring when a person opens a car door is the muscle  
> force that influences this result.
> 
> ```
> RM: Another problem with defining "behavior" as you do
> 
> ```
> 
> is that it treats “behavior” as a description of a  
> component of a theory (PCT) rather than as a description  
> of the phenomenon that the theory is meant to explain.  
> Saying that “behavior” refers to the actions that  
> influence a perception is not an observation because we  
> can’t see that perceptions are being influenced; so your  
> definition of “behavior” is theoretical rather than  
> objective. This is a particular problem when the theory  
> that is the basis of your definition of “behavior” is PCT.  
> This is because, according to PCT it is not only “acts on  
> the environment” that are seen as “behavior”; the  
> reference states of the environmental consequences of  
> those acts – what are called “controlled quantities” in  
> PCT – are also seen as “behavior”. So, as noted above,  
> the varying reference state of the angle of the door (the  
> quantity controlled when opening the door) is seen as the  
> behavior “opening then door” just as much as are the  
> muscle forces (pushing and pulling) that influence this  
> result.
> 
> ```
> RM: Indeed, that's the point of the "Behavior as
> 
> ```
> 
> Control" (now re-dubbed the Behavior Is Control")  
> spreadsheet. It shows that the words that describe  
> “behaviors”, like “Opening a door” or “Pulling on the  
> door”, are referring to both controlled variables (and  
> their associated reference states) and the means used to  
> achieve them (the latter being the only aspect of behavior  
> that you want to refer to as “behavior”).
> 
> RM: The point of the spreadsheet is to give a \* theory  
> free\* description of various activities that are  
> called "behavior’s. The goal is to familiarize people with  
> the phenomenon that PCT was developed to explain –  
> control. Powers brilliant analysis on pp. 171-176 of LCS I  
> shows that the basic subject matter of the behavioral  
> sciences – “behavior” – is not what it has been thought  
> to be. It is not an emitted output; it is not a caused  
> action; it is not a caused consequences of actions; it is  
> not a “show put on for the benefit of an observer”. It is  
> control.
> 
> ```
> RM: Behavior IS control because it can be seen to
> 
> ```
> 
> involve maintaining **variables** is \*\* reference  
> states\*\* by acting appropriately (using the necessary  
> **means** ) to produce this result in the face of **disturbances**.  
> There is no theory needed to see that behavior is control.  
> The fact that a particular behavior is control can be  
> determined experimentally (using the Test) and objectively  
> defined in terms of observable relationships between  
> variables. But you can also get a good feel for the idea  
> that behavior is control by reading pp. 171-176 in LCS I,  
> carefully studying Table 1 on p 172 and, most important,  
> trying to add your own examples of behavior to my  
> expansion of Table 1, p 172 as the “Behavior Is Control”  
> spreadsheet.
> 
> ```
> RM: I think it's very important to understand that
> 
> ```
> 
> behavior is control, in fact, not just in theory, because  
> I think this is where PCT and all other theories of  
> behavior are talking past each other. PCT is the only  
> theory that aims to explain behavior as what it is: a  
> process of control. In order to be a serious student of  
> PCT one has to know that the “behavior” that PCT aims to  
> explain is not the “behavior” that all other theories in  
> the behavioral sciences are trying to explain. PCT  
> explains behavior as control; all other theories explain  
> behavior as caused output.
> 
> ```
> RM: So I highly recommend adding some behaviors to the
> 
> ```
> 
> “Behavior is Control” spreadsheet and analyzing them into  
> controlled variables, reference states, means and  
> disturbances to get a feeling for the phenomenon that PCT  
> explains.
> 
> RM: Remember, phenomena phirst!!
> 
> Best
> 
> Rick
> 
> –  
> Richard S. Marken
> 
> [www.mindreadings.com](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mindreadings.com&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=HcmbREU04_H7jT6DK0hRlsYPy-8xedHwbI4YsdekJQg&s=38qLR5jN12L7To-rtbVj7Vy_tQEsEdVgZs15VQ2YhC0&e=)
> 
> ```
> Author of [Doing Research on Purpose](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_Doing-2DResearch-2DPurpose-2DExperimental-2DPsychology_dp_0944337554_ref-3Dsr-5F1-5F1-3Fie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1407342866-26sr-3D8-2D1-26keywords-3Ddoing-2Bresearch-2Bon-2Bpurpose&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=HcmbREU04_H7jT6DK0hRlsYPy-8xedHwbI4YsdekJQg&s=_YfxVwpfeQL4G-tyIekRDWQYqXmjK63jNqtTSG8V2vI&e=). 
> Now available from Amazon or Barnes &
> 
> ```
> 
> Noble

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/user_avatar/discourse.iapct.org/rsmarken/32/3553_2.png) [@rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/rsmarken)\
**Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learn-from-the-behavior-is-control-spreadsheet-was-re-comman-and-control/6255/3 "2015-10-29T21:12:13Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.29.1410)]

> **···**
>
> > Martin Taylor (2015.10.29.00.05)
> 
> > MT: And so, on a redefinition of what I say, you can hang an essay.
> 
> RM: Did you not define behavior as"…the means by which the controller acts on the environment to influence the perception"? I was quoting what you said in Martin Taylor (2015.10.28.08.54). Perhaps I should have given the citation but thought it would have been clear to you that it was your definition of behavior since you said it. The full quote from that post of yours, by the way, is: “My “behaviour” is not control, but is the means by which the controller acts on the environment to influence the perception.” My essay was “hung” on explaining why that definition of behavior has nothing to do with “behavior” as the term is used in psychology or PCT (particularly in “Behavior: The Control of Perception”).
> 
> Best
> 
> Rick
> 
> RM: The dispute is not arcane but fundamental. According to you, “behavior” refers to “…the means by which the controller acts on the environment to influence the perception”. This is not the “behavior” Bill was talking about in the section of LCS I (pp. 171-176) that I was hoping you and others would read. Nor is it the “behavior” that is being referred to by behavioral scientists. As Bill points out in that section of LCS I, the events we call “behavior” are _consequences_ of acts on the environment (the acts you call “behavior”). So “Opening the Car Door” is a description of a consequence of the muscle force “acts” (combined with environmental forces) that influence the angle of the door relative to the car. By your definition the only “behavior” that is occurring when a person opens a car door is the muscle force that influences this result.
> 
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 6:10 AM, Martin Taylor [mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net](mailto:mmt-csg@mmtaylor.net) wrote:
> 
> > [Martin Taylor 2015.10.29.00.05]
> > 
> > > [From Rick Marken (2015.10.28.1400)]
> 
> > ```
> > I'm impressed by the way you can redefine what I say so as to be
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > able to make a long posting to show I am wrong. It’s a well  
> > developed skill, but not, I think, one well used to advance the  
> > science of PCT.
> 
> > ```
> > And so, on a redefinition of what I say, you can hang an essay.
> > 
> > Martin
> > 
> > ```
> 
> > 
> 
> –
> 
> > ```
> > Martin Taylor
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > (2015.10.28.08.54)–
> 
> > ```
> > BH:
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > So if you and Rick don’t understand difference between  
> > »Behavior is Control« and »Behavior : The Control of  
> > perception«, you wil have to read B:CP again to  
> > understand PCT.
> > 
> > ```
> > MT: I'm sorry you didn't understand my attempt to point
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > out one subtlety of the English language that is the  
> > reason for an arcane dispute between Rick and me.
> 
> ```
> RM: The dispute is not arcane but fundamental.
> 
> ```
> 
> According to you, “behavior” refers to “…the means by  
> which the controller acts on the environment to influence  
> the perception”. This is not the “behavior” Bill was  
> talking about in the section of LCS I (pp. 171-176) that I  
> was hoping you and others would read. Nor is it the  
> “behavior” that is being referred to by behavioral  
> scientists. As Bill points out in that section of LCS I,  
> the events we call “behavior” are _consequences_ of  
> acts on the environment (the acts you call “behavior”). So  
> “Opening the Car Door” is a description of a consequence  
> of the muscle force “acts” (combined with environmental  
> forces) that influence the angle of the door relative to  
> the car. By your definition the only “behavior” that is  
> occurring when a person opens a car door is the muscle  
> force that influences this result.
> 
> ```
> RM: Another problem with defining "behavior" as you do
> 
> ```
> 
> is that it treats “behavior” as a description of a  
> component of a theory (PCT) rather than as a description  
> of the phenomenon that the theory is meant to explain.  
> Saying that “behavior” refers to the actions that  
> influence a perception is not an observation because we  
> can’t see that perceptions are being influenced; so your  
> definition of “behavior” is theoretical rather than  
> objective. This is a particular problem when the theory  
> that is the basis of your definition of “behavior” is PCT.  
> This is because, according to PCT it is not only “acts on  
> the environment” that are seen as “behavior”; the  
> reference states of the environmental consequences of  
> those acts – what are called “controlled quantities” in  
> PCT – are also seen as “behavior”. So, as noted above,  
> the varying reference state of the angle of the door (the  
> quantity controlled when opening the door) is seen as the  
> behavior “opening then door” just as much as are the  
> muscle forces (pushing and pulling) that influence this  
> result.
> 
> ```
> RM: Indeed, that's the point of the "Behavior as
> 
> ```
> 
> Control" (now re-dubbed the Behavior Is Control")  
> spreadsheet. It shows that the words that describe  
> “behaviors”, like “Opening a door” or “Pulling on the  
> door”, are referring to both controlled variables (and  
> their associated reference states) and the means used to  
> achieve them (the latter being the only aspect of behavior  
> that you want to refer to as “behavior”).
> 
> RM: The point of the spreadsheet is to give a \* theory  
> free\* description of various activities that are  
> called "behavior’s. The goal is to familiarize people with  
> the phenomenon that PCT was developed to explain –  
> control. Powers brilliant analysis on pp. 171-176 of LCS I  
> shows that the basic subject matter of the behavioral  
> sciences – “behavior” – is not what it has been thought  
> to be. It is not an emitted output; it is not a caused  
> action; it is not a caused consequences of actions; it is  
> not a “show put on for the benefit of an observer”. It is  
> control.
> 
> ```
> RM: Behavior IS control because it can be seen to
> 
> ```
> 
> involve maintaining **variables** is \*\* reference  
> states\*\* by acting appropriately (using the necessary  
> **means** ) to produce this result in the face of **disturbances**.  
> There is no theory needed to see that behavior is control.  
> The fact that a particular behavior is control can be  
> determined experimentally (using the Test) and objectively  
> defined in terms of observable relationships between  
> variables. But you can also get a good feel for the idea  
> that behavior is control by reading pp. 171-176 in LCS I,  
> carefully studying Table 1 on p 172 and, most important,  
> trying to add your own examples of behavior to my  
> expansion of Table 1, p 172 as the “Behavior Is Control”  
> spreadsheet.
> 
> ```
> RM: I think it's very important to understand that
> 
> ```
> 
> behavior is control, in fact, not just in theory, because  
> I think this is where PCT and all other theories of  
> behavior are talking past each other. PCT is the only  
> theory that aims to explain behavior as what it is: a  
> process of control. In order to be a serious student of  
> PCT one has to know that the “behavior” that PCT aims to  
> explain is not the “behavior” that all other theories in  
> the behavioral sciences are trying to explain. PCT  
> explains behavior as control; all other theories explain  
> behavior as caused output.
> 
> ```
> RM: So I highly recommend adding some behaviors to the
> 
> ```
> 
> “Behavior is Control” spreadsheet and analyzing them into  
> controlled variables, reference states, means and  
> disturbances to get a feeling for the phenomenon that PCT  
> explains.
> 
> RM: Remember, phenomena phirst!!
> 
> Best
> 
> Rick
> 
> –  
> Richard S. Marken
> 
> [www.mindreadings.com](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mindreadings.com&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=HcmbREU04_H7jT6DK0hRlsYPy-8xedHwbI4YsdekJQg&s=38qLR5jN12L7To-rtbVj7Vy_tQEsEdVgZs15VQ2YhC0&e=)
> 
> ```
> Author of [Doing Research on Purpose](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_Doing-2DResearch-2DPurpose-2DExperimental-2DPsychology_dp_0944337554_ref-3Dsr-5F1-5F1-3Fie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1407342866-26sr-3D8-2D1-26keywords-3Ddoing-2Bresearch-2Bon-2Bpurpose&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=HcmbREU04_H7jT6DK0hRlsYPy-8xedHwbI4YsdekJQg&s=_YfxVwpfeQL4G-tyIekRDWQYqXmjK63jNqtTSG8V2vI&e=). 
> Now available from Amazon or Barnes &
> 
> ```
> 
> Noble
> 
> Richard S. Marken
> 
> [www.mindreadings.com](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mindreadings.com&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=oPcofJg6ssNur8G7nrG9peI7IzXfWQVCVTJ2lo6AAa0&s=oSlxRr_y8DBmQh4bIx9UnYPPbhWkoQkcoik0G3gmuHM&e=)  
> Author of [Doing Research on Purpose](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_Doing-2DResearch-2DPurpose-2DExperimental-2DPsychology_dp_0944337554_ref-3Dsr-5F1-5F1-3Fie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1407342866-26sr-3D8-2D1-26keywords-3Ddoing-2Bresearch-2Bon-2Bpurpose&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=oPcofJg6ssNur8G7nrG9peI7IzXfWQVCVTJ2lo6AAa0&s=QWJxgJ0e7rO2yd_r-O0mrBXV95AxduyOWcJ3-buqXtU&e=).  
> Now available from Amazon or Barnes & Noble

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![MartinT](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/ee7513/32.png) [@MartinT](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/MartinT)\
**Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learn-from-the-behavior-is-control-spreadsheet-was-re-comman-and-control/6255/4 "2015-10-29T22:35:07Z")

</div>

[Martin Taylor 2015.10.29.18.30]

> [From Rick Marken (2015.10.29.1410)]

```
I plead guilty of using the word "means" differently from the way it

```

is used in Powers’s table in which he has columns “Behaviour” and  
“Means”, and thereby confusing the discussion.

```
Sorry about that, but I think my intended meaning should have been

```

clear from my:

```
"What I'm saying is that in my usage, every controlled perception is

```

controlled by means of the _influence_ the behaviour has on the  
perception. We in Canada just had a Federal Election. My “behaviour”  
in that context was to go and vote, to influence my perception of  
who is the governing party. My behaviour in respect of controlling  
my perception of the governing party was not walking to the polling  
station, or manipulating a pencil. It was voting."

```
Martin

```

> **···**
>
> > ```
> > Martin Taylor
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > (2015.10.29.00.05)
> 
> > ```
> > MT: And so, on a redefinition of what I say, you can
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > hang an essay.
> 
> ```
> RM: Did you not define behavior as"...the means by
> 
> ```
> 
> which the controller acts on the environment to influence  
> the perception"? I was quoting what you said in Martin Taylor  
> (2015.10.28.08.54). Perhaps I should have given the  
> citation but thought it would have been clear to you  
> that it was your definition of behavior since you said  
> it. The full quote from that post of yours, by the way, is: " My  
> “behaviour” is not control, but is the means by which  
> the controller acts on the environment to influence the  
> perception." My essay was “hung” on explaining why that  
> definition of behavior has nothing to do with “behavior”  
> as the term is used in psychology or PCT (particularly  
> in “Behavior: The Control of Perception”).
> 
> ```
> RM: The dispute is not
> 
> ```
> 
> arcane but fundamental. According to you,  
> “behavior” refers to “…the means by which the  
> controller acts on the environment to influence  
> the perception”. This is not the “behavior” Bill  
> was talking about in the section of LCS I (pp.  
> 171-176) that I was hoping you and others would  
> read. Nor is it the “behavior” that is being  
> referred to by behavioral scientists. As Bill  
> points out in that section of LCS I, the events  
> we call “behavior” are _consequences_ of  
> acts on the environment (the acts you call  
> “behavior”). So “Opening the Car Door” is a  
> description of a consequence of the muscle force  
> “acts” (combined with environmental forces) that  
> influence the angle of the door relative to the  
> car. By your definition the only “behavior” that  
> is occurring when a person opens a car door is  
> the muscle force that influences this result.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/user_avatar/discourse.iapct.org/rsmarken/32/3553_2.png) [@rsmarken](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/rsmarken)\
**Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learn-from-the-behavior-is-control-spreadsheet-was-re-comman-and-control/6255/5 "2015-10-29T23:14:49Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2015.10.29.1610)]

> **···**
>
> > Martin Taylor (2015.10.29.18.30)–
> 
> > ```
> > MT: I plead guilty of using the word "means" differently from the way it
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > is used in Powers’s table in which he has columns “Behaviour” and  
> > “Means”, and thereby confusing the discussion.
> > 
> > ```
> > MT: Sorry about that, but I think my intended meaning should have been
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > clear from my:
> > 
> > ```
> > MT: "What I'm saying is that in my usage, every controlled perception is
> > 
> > ```
> > 
> > controlled by means of the _influence_ the behaviour has on the  
> > perception.
> 
> RM: You are still identifying “behaviour” (have it your way;-) only with the means for influencing a controlled variable (not a controlled perception; that’s a theoretical concept and we’re trying to be objective here). My “essay” hung on the fact that you description of behaviour leaves out the fundamentally important fact that the events that we call behaviour include not only the means that influence a controlled variable but also the controlled variable itself and, of course, its reference state. All these variables – means, CV and reference state – are implicitly included when we describe tbehaviour as control.
> 
> Best
> 
> Rick
> 
> –  
> Richard S. Marken
> 
> [www.mindreadings.com](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mindreadings.com&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=_evF0d-jCITpUiho2CbZ6-NXKSet-aVntvDvriS25Nc&s=nlu5FbEltC9SbYJIwUCxCRUxSsjABhX7fDSd-dtmbP8&e=)  
> Author of [Doing Research on Purpose](https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_Doing-2DResearch-2DPurpose-2DExperimental-2DPsychology_dp_0944337554_ref-3Dsr-5F1-5F1-3Fie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1407342866-26sr-3D8-2D1-26keywords-3Ddoing-2Bresearch-2Bon-2Bpurpose&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=-dJBNItYEMOLt6aj_KjGi2LMO_Q8QB-ZzxIZIF8DGyQ&m=_evF0d-jCITpUiho2CbZ6-NXKSet-aVntvDvriS25Nc&s=lpyi_wowc4Rb7E6TVrz8VsIzjFFTjzUugFX3HXeSiCk&e=).  
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> 
> > 
> 
> ```
> RM: Did you not define behavior as"...the means by
> 
> ```
> 
> which the controller acts on the environment to influence  
> the perception"?..