# Learning, Memory, etc.
**URL:** http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learning-memory-etc/6295
**Category:** CSG1995
**Created:** [February 27, 1995, 3:49pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learning-memory-etc/6295 "1995-02-27T15:49:09Z")
**Posts on this page:** 2
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Joel\_B\_Judd](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Joel_B_Judd)
#### Post date: [February 27, 1995, 3:49pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learning-memory-etc/6295/1 "1995-02-27T15:49:09Z")
{from Joel Judd 950227.1515 CST}
Rick:
Could you send me a phone # for you in LA (directly)? My last message to
you is in cyber never-never land.
Rich (950224):
I'm not sure whether to continue postulating or let you digest some of
the readings and see what you think.
Maybe a little of both.
Try the 1993 Perkinson book first (\_Teachers Without Goals...\_). It's
only a two-hour read, and he talks specifically about education without
as much of the philosophical justification in the other refs. You might
quickly thumb through Mayher's \_Uncommon Sense\_ from 1990, especially
the earlier chapters where he lays out his premises. I think these will
help you see where I am coming from. If not, I can explain why I read
them as I do.
As for your questions about memory, to be honest I have not considered
memory itself apart from the treatment it has gotten from time to time
in Control Theory literature. I had a few top-of-the-head responses to
some of what you ask. I also need to dig through some of my glorified
shoeboxes (copy paper boxes) where a lot of my stuff is STILL filed
after five months.
> Are you saying that memory is an emergent property? That there is no
> explicit storage and retrieval of information?
I guess if you mean by "explicit" the EXACT, SAME, UNCHANGING object or
concept or thing, then for me there is no explicit storage and retrieval
of information. Maybe I'm reading too much into your question, but it
seems to border on the real reality problem, or at least the implication
that we somehow induct what IS "out there" into the brain.
Without oversimplifying, if HPCT describes perceptual control, then an
implication for me is that imagination and memory are closely related
and may, in some cases, actually be the same thing. The \ I recall
by replaying, so to speak, relevant perceptual levels; yet, each time I
recall it, and as time passes, the memory/imagination changes.
Let me cite part of Campbell and Bickhard (1986) and then run for the
day:
"For the interactive approach, in contrast, representation is NOT
constituted by any kind of structural correspondance between what
represents and what is represented. Representation is an interactive
functional property rather than a structural property. Correspondingly,
importing structures from the environment into the system is not only
impossible, but also irrelevant. The epistemic connection with reality
is not structural but interactive. The ontology of representation and
knowledge is system organization, which could be regarded as a kind of
structure...
For the interactive perspective, then, learning cannot have
anything to do with structures being stamped in or imported from the
environment. Learning can only be understood as the construction of new
system organization that in fact succeeds in interacting with the
environment, and in differentiating it in usable ways. The only
possible source of such new system organization is internal to the
system (as long as we are not considering externally designed and built
systems). Learning, therefore, must be modelled as an internal process
of system construction. Similarly, there is no way for such a
constructive process to anticipate with certainty WHICH new system
organizations will be useful. It could not do so unless it already had
the knowledge in question {the Meno dilemma}...
Representation and knowledge (and by extension, memory) are
constructed indirectly via new system organization rather than directly
in terms of basic elements of representation (encodings)."
Joel
> **ยทยทยท**
>
> TO: CSG-L INTERNET Any user on the Internet, not at DESE Proj. Box
>
> FROM: JUDDJ DESEINST Joel Judd - DESE - Division of Instruction
>
> DATE: February 27, 1995
> SUBJECT: Re: Learning, Memory, etc.
---
### Author:  [@thurman1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/thurman1)
#### Post date: [February 28, 1995, 6:15pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/learning-memory-etc/6295/2 "1995-02-28T18:15:05Z")
[From Richard Thurman (950228.1045)]
Joel Judd (950227.1515 CST)
> I'm not sure whether to continue postulating or let you digest some of
> the readings and see what you think.
> Maybe a little of both.
I have sent off for the Perkinson (1993) and Petrie (1981) texts. (The
nearest library is 40 miles away.) I am beginning to see where you
are coming from a little more and find the idea that knowledge is an
emergent property of control systems challenging (in a good sort of
way).
As soon as I am done with those two books I will tackle Bickhard (1992).
> As for your questions about memory, to be honest I have not considered
> memory itself apart from the treatment it has gotten from time to time
> in Control Theory literature. I had a few top-of-the-head responses to
> some of what you ask. I also need to dig through some of my glorified
> shoeboxes (copy paper boxes) where a lot of my stuff is STILL filed
> after five months.
The memory idea (as it relates to knowledge) just took me by surprise.
What I had originally asked for was their (Bickhard, Petrie & Perkinson)
"views" on education from a PCT standpoint. That question you answered
very nicely. I just let the 'memory' question get in the way of the
larger inquiry.
> Let me cite part of Campbell and Bickhard (1986) and then run for the
> day:
Yes, that quote seals it for me. That is what I thought you were saying
concerning 'encodinism.'
Perhaps a discussion of all the ways the term 'learning' is used and
how and in which way PCT sheds light on them would be productive.
But for now I better just read the stuff you suggest and then come
back with better formed questions.
Thanks for the stimulating ideas!
Rich