Less preaching to choir and more inviting to the dance

I am writing a paper arguing for adoption of the control model in developmental disabilities. They (see Carr, 2007) are using such descriptive labels as positive behavior support and person-centered planning. They do not have empirically-supported theory for such ideas. PCT is that theory and will lead to much more accurate and just outcomes for people with disabilities. I would like your most recent publication, regardless of area of life science, in which you suggest use of a control model (PCT) as an alternative to the general linear model. I have Dr. Marken’s 2013 paper–wow!

Happy Father’s Day!

David

···

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 07:57:07 -0700
From: rsmarken@GMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: Where we go from here with PCT
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

[From Rick Marken (2013.06.16.0800)]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Rupert Young rupert@moonsit.co.uk wrote:

I do think this is a good idea and would certainly like to go through B:CP in more detail. A few reservations though:

Thanks Rupert. We will take all of these excellent thoughts into consideration as we develop the course. I’ll try to post out progress asap.

Best

Rick

It does seem to be, as I think Dick alluded to, preaching to the choir as it would reach those already interested in PCT. Although useful to consolidate existing knowledge it would not seem to reach the wider world, or address the question of “where do we go from here”. However, if we have in mind, while we are going through the course the areas that require further research or could lead to applications of PCT then that would be useful to address the question in hand. I have also put together some of my own initial thoughts on this matter, which I will put on another thread; PCT Roadmap.
It would also be useful if an outcome was to produce resources, such as a set of videos on youtube, that would be available to all, though, obviously that requires a lot of work.
In practical terms what would be the form of the course discussion? Given that threads on CSG have a tendency to descend into interminable discussions about seemingly obscure points there is a danger that we would all be joining Bill well before we got to the end of chapter 1! I’d suggest it is done in the form of a presentation (of the main topics in each chapter) followed by a Q&A session, that is strictly limited in time.
Even so this does seem to be quite a major undertaking, particularly for the organisers (Rick and David). If (conservative estimate) one chapter per month was covered then the whole course would take n months (sorry, don’t have book to hand) and is likely to dominate CSG for that time.

In some sense I’d rather see people get on with progressing PCT (as those who are producing papers and books are doing) than going over old ground. On the other hand perhaps this is a good opportunity to take a step back and reflect on what we know as a springboard for deciding what we need to do to take PCT forward.

Regards,
Rupert Young

On 10/06/2013 23:46, Richard Marken wrote:


Hi Alice et al
OK, I've already gotten "buy in" from several people, most of whom are
already on CSGNet. So apparently there is some interest in the class.
And there didn't seem to be any protest about using CSGNet. So here's
what I propose for now. I will start working with David Goldstein on a
syllabus and some materials for the class. I would like to shoot for
starting the class in the beginning of July. If you want to "enroll"
in the class, just subscribe to CSGNet using the simple procedure I
described in my original post in this thread. Just sent an email to
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

with the words
SUBSCRIBE CSGNET
in the body of the email.
Once you subscribe, you will start getting posts from the listserver
when people post things. If you are not interested in these posts
simply delete them. When the course starts you will receive posts that
start with "B:CP Course" or "Re: B:CP Course". These will be the posts
relevant to the course. When the course starts you can either just
read those posts or comment on them using "Reply", in which case the
post will be distributed to everyone in the course with the "Re:
BCP:Course" in the subject line.
So I envision the course being made up of a series "threads" defined
by the subject line in the email, but all subject lines will start
with "B:CP Course" or "Re: B:CP Course". For example, the thread
titles would be something like:
B:CP Course: Preface
B:CP Course: Chapter 1, The Dilemmas of Behaviorism
B:CP: Course: Chapter 2, Models and Generalizations
.
.
B:CP: Course: Chapter 18, Conflict and Control
B:CP Course :Appendix : Control System Operation and Stability
The text for the course could be either the 1973 or (preferably) the
2005 edition of B:CP. If the chapter names are use the people using
the 1973 edition would have no problem following along, except they
would be missing the important Emotion chapter that was not included
in the 1973 edition.
One last thing. Warren Mansell asked whether, at the end of each
chapter's discussion, a text version of the chapter be annotated with
links and consensual comments to act as a more concise archive than
the discussion itself. I would be willing to consider this if we can
get an electronic version of the text and that's something that Alice
would have to have a say in. I think Alice would have to be willing to
put a an electronic version of the text up on the net. If so, then
we'll try to include this in the course.
So there is no need to contact me any more to tell me that you want to
take the B:CP Course.
If you want to take the course, just SIGN UP FOR CSGNet and wait for
the posts headed "B:CP Course", which should start coming in July.
Best regards
Rick
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Alice McElhone <apmcelhone@aol.com> wrote:

David and Rick:
I'm in! (I'll figure out how to change my e-address on the CSGlist when I
get home.)
This is brilliant! Of all the ideas I've thought and heard about the future
of PDT and CSG this is a simple "elegant" immediate beginning. I'm guessing
it will appeal to the researchers and educators on this distinguished list.
Thank you both for a real step forward.
Alice
Alice Powers McElhone
73 Essex Avenue #6
Bloomfield, NJ 07003
apmce@benchpress.com
.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Marken <rsmarken@gmail.com>
To: Alison Powers <controlsystemsgroupconference@gmail.com>
Cc: Alice McElhone <apmcelhone@aol.com>; <bbabbott@frontier.com>
<bbabbott@frontier.com>; Dag Forssell <dag@livingcontrolsystems.com>; Warren
Mansell <wmansell@gmail.com>; Sara Tai <sara.tai@manchester.ac.uk>;
<Tim.Carey@flinders.edu.au> <Tim.Carey@flinders.edu.au>; <mmt@mmtaylor.net>
<mmt@mmtaylor.net>; Henry Yin <hy43@duke.edu>; Bill Powers
<powers_w@frontier.net>; Bruce Nevin <bruce.nevin@gmail.com>;
<rjrobertson2@comcast.net> <rjrobertson2@comcast.net>; 328babs .
<bara0361@gmail.com>; Denny Powers <denny68flh@gmail.com>; McClelland, Kent
<MCCLEL@grinnell.edu>; Hugh Petrie <hgpetrie@acsu.buffalo.edu>; Gary Cziko
<gcziko@gmail.com>; Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
<CSGNET@listserv.illinois.edu>; Mike Mermel <mmermel@mikemermel.com>; Autumn
Winter <1@aut.me>; Richard Pfau <richardpfau4153@aol.com>; isabel.adeyemi
<isabel.adeyemi@manchester.ac.uk>; sarah_alsawy <sarah_alsawy@live.co.uk>;
heather.bell <heather.bell@uleth.ca>; alec.brady
<alec.brady@behavioural.org.uk>; emma.burns <emma.burns@police.govt.nz>;
amnachoudry <amnachoudry@hotmail.co.uk>; janakacooray
<janakacooray@gmail.com>; farrell.pse <farrell.pse@gmail.com>; emma.fowler-2
<emma.fowler-2@student.manchester.ac.uk>; hannah.gaffney
<hannah.gaffney@manchester.ac.uk>; davidgoldsteinphd
<davidgoldsteinphd@gmail.com>; dougal.hare <dougal.hare@manchester.ac.uk>;
mail <mail@nchawkes.com>; cehalav <cehalav@gmail.com>; kellyh82
<kellyh82@live.co.uk>; amy.jones-3 <amy.jones-3@student.manchester.ac.uk>;
4res4cp2mk <4res4cp2mk@gmail.com>; devpriyak <devpriyak@gmail.com>; d.laila
<d.laila@soton.ac.uk>; dunya.latif-aramesh
<dunya.latif-aramesh@student.manchester.ac.uk>; kieranmatthijslord
<kieranmatthijslord@hotmail.com>; rsmarken <rsmarken@gmail.com>; adam.matic
<adam.matic@gmail.com>; susan.mccormack47 <susan.mccormack47@gmail.com>;
davidwm40 <davidwm40@hotmail.com>; n.j.moberly <n.j.moberly@ex.ac.uk>;
r.k.moore <r.k.moore@dcs.shef.ac.uk>; morris_lydia
<morris_lydia@hotmail.com>; richardmullan <richardmullan@mac.com>;
elizabeth.murphy <elizabeth.murphy@manchester.ac.uk>; g.niezen
<g.niezen@swansea.ac.uk>; rachel.oconnor
<rachel.oconnor@student.manchester.ac.uk>; irishi62305
<irishi62305@yahoo.com>; suzanna.parsons
<suzanna.parsons@student.manchester.ac.uk>; trishna.patel
<trishna.patel@oxleas.nhs.uk>; pellis <pellis@uleth.ca>; fplooij
<fplooij@kiddygroup.com>; siddhi.poyarekar <siddhi.poyarekar@gmail.com>; zr
<zr@zinovi.net>; kate.roughley <kate.roughley@manchester.ac.uk>;
vaneeta.sadhnani <vaneeta.sadhnani@nhs.net>; oliver.s <oliver.s@telia.com>;
rzspijk <rzspijk@gmail.com>; cmspratt <cmspratt@xalt.co.uk>; agsteven
<agsteven@stetson.edu>; clairesti <clairesti@hotmail.co.uk>; naomi.taylor
<naomi.taylor@student.manchester.ac.uk>; dougturk <dougturk@aol.com>;
Filippo.Varese <Filippo.Varese@postgrad.manchester.ac.uk>; guy.vernon
<guy.vernon@student.manchester.ac.uk>; jason <jason@jason-wright.com>;
K.A.Wright <K.A.Wright@ex.ac.uk>; rupert <rupert@moonsit.co.uk>
Sent: Sun, Jun 9, 2013 3:35 pm
Subject: Where we go from here with PCT
Dear all
I am sending this to Bill Powers family, CSGList as well as everyone
else who I could think of who might have an interest in the future of
PCT (this includes the many people listed on the public list of PCT
researchers, students and practitioners at the PCTWeb.org site). As
you know, Bill Powers passed away on May 24th. This was a great
personal loss to many of us who knew Bill as a father, brother or
friend. But it was also a great intellectual loss to those of us
involved in research and/or application based on PCT. Bill was not
only the developer of PCT but he also had a unique ability to teach
his theory to others. Now those of us who recognize the importance of
PCT and are excited about its future must carry on without Bill's
gentle but steady hand on the tiller, ready to right us when we go
wrong (as he righted me when I so often went wrong).
So I am writing to those of you who have an interest in the future of
PCT to suggest how we might best proceed. I already have one
suggestion from David Goldstein, which I think is a very good one.
That is, that we conduct something like an on-line course where we go
through _Behavior: The Control of Perception_, chapter by chapter and
discuss each chapter in terms of the main points Bill was trying to
make, research, old and new, that is relevant to those points and what
kinds of research is suggested by the points made in the chapter.
David and I would be the "guides" in this course but there will be no
"teacher"; all participants would be bother teachers and students.
In order to make such a course work I think all those who would like
to participate should be able to go to one place to have the
discussion. I think the best place to to this would be CSGNet. So I
suggest that if you want to participate in the course (or just listen
in) you should join the CSGNet listserve by sending an email to:
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

with just the following text in the email:
SUBSCRIBE CSGNET
The course could then just be a "thread" in the CSG discussion.
If anyone has a better idea about how to get everyone together for
such a course (and I'm sure there are better ideas; I'm pretty old
fashioned when it comes to the internet) please feel free to let me
know.
What I like about David's idea for a course on B:CP is that it honors
Bill's most important legacy (the whole edifice of ideas that are
PCT). I also like it because it gets all of us who are working on PCT
together so that we can keep each other "honest" as we go about our
business of extending that legacy (Bill was very big on subjecting
one's own ideas to critical -- and, of course, empirical-- test;
especially the ideas that you are most in love with).
So that's my proposal for the near future, anyway. I hope many of you
will get involved in this "course". The future of PCT depends on us
(and especially you younger folks).
Best regards
Rick
Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
[www.mindreadings.com](http://www.mindreadings.com/)


Richard S. Marken PhD
rsmarken@gmail.com
www.mindreadings.com

Hi David, that’s sounds like a very worthwhile article! I have a colleague here in Manchester working in LD who is sympathetic to PCT so may have some ideas. He wrote a conference paper for our 2007 event in Manchester that is online. Hope you like the review paper Rick and I put together.

Warren

···

Sent from my iPhone

On 16 Jun 2013, at 16:35, David M davidwm40@HOTMAIL.COM wrote:

I am writing a paper arguing for adoption of the control model in developmental disabilities. They (see Carr, 2007) are using such descriptive labels as positive behavior support and person-centered planning. They do not have empirically-supported theory for such ideas. PCT is that theory and will lead to much more accurate and just outcomes for people with disabilities. I would like your most recent publication, regardless of area of life science, in which you suggest use of a control model (PCT) as an alternative to the general linear model. I have Dr. Marken’s 2013 paper–wow!

Happy Father’s Day!

David


Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 07:57:07 -0700
From: rsmarken@GMAIL.COM
Subject: Re: Where we go from here with PCT
To: CSGNET@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

[From Rick Marken (2013.06.16.0800)]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Rupert Young rupert@moonsit.co.uk wrote:

I do think this is a good idea and would certainly like to go through B:CP in more detail. A few reservations though:

Thanks Rupert. We will take all of these excellent thoughts into consideration as we develop the course. I’ll try to post out progress asap.

Best

Rick

It does seem to be, as I think Dick alluded to, preaching to the choir as it would reach those already interested in PCT. Although useful to consolidate existing knowledge it would not seem to reach the wider world, or address the question of “where do we go from here”. However, if we have in mind, while we are going through the course the areas that require further research or could lead to applications of PCT then that would be useful to address the question in hand. I have also put together some of my own initial thoughts on this matter, which I will put on another thread; PCT Roadmap.
It would also be useful if an outcome was to produce resources, such as a set of videos on youtube, that would be available to all, though, obviously that requires a lot of work.
In practical terms what would be the form of the course discussion? Given that threads on CSG have a tendency to descend into interminable discussions about seemingly obscure points there is a danger that we would all be joining Bill well before we got to the end of chapter 1! I’d suggest it is done in the form of a presentation (of the main topics in each chapter) followed by a Q&A session, that is strictly limited in time.
Even so this does seem to be quite a major undertaking, particularly for the organisers (Rick and David). If (conservative estimate) one chapter per month was covered then the whole course would take n months (sorry, don’t have book to hand) and is likely to dominate CSG for that time.

In some sense I’d rather see people get on with progressing PCT (as those who are producing papers and books are doing) than going over old ground. On the other hand perhaps this is a good opportunity to take a step back and reflect on what we know as a springboard for deciding what we need to do to take PCT forward.

Regards,
Rupert Young

On 10/06/2013 23:46, Richard Marken wrote:


Hi Alice et al
OK, I've already gotten "buy in" from several people, most of whom are
already on CSGNet. So apparently there is some interest in the class.
And there didn't seem to be any protest about using CSGNet. So here's
what I propose for now. I will start working with David Goldstein on a
syllabus and some materials for the class. I would like to shoot for
starting the class in the beginning of July. If you want to "enroll"
in the class, just subscribe to CSGNet using the simple procedure I
described in my original post in this thread. Just sent an email to
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

with the words
SUBSCRIBE CSGNET
in the body of the email.
Once you subscribe, you will start getting posts from the listserver
when people post things. If you are not interested in these posts
simply delete them. When the course starts you will receive posts that
start with "B:CP Course" or "Re: B:CP Course". These will be the posts
relevant to the course. When the course starts you can either just
read those posts or comment on them using "Reply", in which case the
post will be distributed to everyone in the course with the "Re:
BCP:Course" in the subject line.
So I envision the course being made up of a series "threads" defined
by the subject line in the email, but all subject lines will start
with "B:CP Course" or "Re: B:CP Course". For example, the thread
titles would be something like:
B:CP Course: Preface
B:CP Course: Chapter 1, The Dilemmas of Behaviorism
B:CP: Course: Chapter 2, Models and Generalizations
.
.
B:CP: Course: Chapter 18, Conflict and Control
B:CP Course :Appendix : Control System Operation and Stability
The text for the course could be either the 1973 or (preferably) the
2005 edition of B:CP. If the chapter names are use the people using
the 1973 edition would have no problem following along, except they
would be missing the important Emotion chapter that was not included
in the 1973 edition.
One last thing. Warren Mansell asked whether, at the end of each
chapter's discussion, a text version of the chapter be annotated with
links and consensual comments to act as a more concise archive than
the discussion itself. I would be willing to consider this if we can
get an electronic version of the text and that's something that Alice
would have to have a say in. I think Alice would have to be willing to
put a an electronic version of the text up on the net. If so, then
we'll try to include this in the course.
So there is no need to contact me any more to tell me that you want to
take the B:CP Course.
If you want to take the course, just SIGN UP FOR CSGNet and wait for
the posts headed "B:CP Course", which should start coming in July.
Best regards
Rick
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Alice McElhone <apmcelhone@aol.com> wrote:

David and Rick:
I'm in! (I'll figure out how to change my e-address on the CSGlist when I
get home.)
This is brilliant! Of all the ideas I've thought and heard about the future
of PDT and CSG this is a simple "elegant" immediate beginning. I'm guessing
it will appeal to the researchers and educators on this distinguished list.
Thank you both for a real step forward.
Alice
Alice Powers McElhone
73 Essex Avenue #6
Bloomfield, NJ 07003
apmce@benchpress.com
.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Marken <rsmarken@gmail.com>
To: Alison Powers <controlsystemsgroupconference@gmail.com>
Cc: Alice McElhone <apmcelhone@aol.com>; <bbabbott@frontier.com>
<bbabbott@frontier.com>; Dag Forssell <dag@livingcontrolsystems.com>; Warren
Mansell <wmansell@gmail.com>; Sara Tai <sara.tai@manchester.ac.uk>;
<Tim.Carey@flinders.edu.au> <Tim.Carey@flinders.edu.au>; <mmt@mmtaylor.net>
<mmt@mmtaylor.net>; Henry Yin <hy43@duke.edu>; Bill Powers
<powers_w@frontier.net>; Bruce Nevin <bruce.nevin@gmail.com>;
<rjrobertson2@comcast.net> <rjrobertson2@comcast.net>; 328babs .
<bara0361@gmail.com>; Denny Powers <denny68flh@gmail.com>; McClelland, Kent
<MCCLEL@grinnell.edu>; Hugh Petrie <hgpetrie@acsu.buffalo.edu>; Gary Cziko
<gcziko@gmail.com>; Control Systems Group Network (CSGnet)
<CSGNET@listserv.illinois.edu>; Mike Mermel <mmermel@mikemermel.com>; Autumn
Winter <1@aut.me>; Richard Pfau <richardpfau4153@aol.com>; isabel.adeyemi
<isabel.adeyemi@manchester.ac.uk>; sarah_alsawy <sarah_alsawy@live.co.uk>;
heather.bell <heather.bell@uleth.ca>; alec.brady
<alec.brady@behavioural.org.uk>; emma.burns <emma.burns@police.govt.nz>;
amnachoudry <amnachoudry@hotmail.co.uk>; janakacooray
<janakacooray@gmail.com>; farrell.pse <farrell.pse@gmail.com>; emma.fowler-2
<emma.fowler-2@student.manchester.ac.uk>; hannah.gaffney
<hannah.gaffney@manchester.ac.uk>; davidgoldsteinphd
<davidgoldsteinphd@gmail.com>; dougal.hare <dougal.hare@manchester.ac.uk>;
mail <mail@nchawkes.com>; cehalav <cehalav@gmail.com>; kellyh82
<kellyh82@live.co.uk>; amy.jones-3 <amy.jones-3@student.manchester.ac.uk>;
4res4cp2mk <4res4cp2mk@gmail.com>; devpriyak <devpriyak@gmail.com>; d.laila
<d.laila@soton.ac.uk>; dunya.latif-aramesh
<dunya.latif-aramesh@student.manchester.ac.uk>; kieranmatthijslord
<kieranmatthijslord@hotmail.com>; rsmarken <rsmarken@gmail.com>; adam.matic
<adam.matic@gmail.com>; susan.mccormack47 <susan.mccormack47@gmail.com>;
davidwm40 <davidwm40@hotmail.com>; n.j.moberly <n.j.moberly@ex.ac.uk>;
r.k.moore <r.k.moore@dcs.shef.ac.uk>; morris_lydia
<morris_lydia@hotmail.com>; richardmullan <richardmullan@mac.com>;
elizabeth.murphy <elizabeth.murphy@manchester.ac.uk>; g.niezen
<g.niezen@swansea.ac.uk>; rachel.oconnor
<rachel.oconnor@student.manchester.ac.uk>; irishi62305
<irishi62305@yahoo.com>; suzanna.parsons
<suzanna.parsons@student.manchester.ac.uk>; trishna.patel
<trishna.patel@oxleas.nhs.uk>; pellis <pellis@uleth.ca>; fplooij
<fplooij@kiddygroup.com>; siddhi.poyarekar <siddhi.poyarekar@gmail.com>; zr
<zr@zinovi.net>; kate.roughley <kate.roughley@manchester.ac.uk>;
vaneeta.sadhnani <vaneeta.sadhnani@nhs.net>; oliver.s <oliver.s@telia.com>;
rzspijk <rzspijk@gmail.com>; cmspratt <cmspratt@xalt.co.uk>; agsteven
<agsteven@stetson.edu>; clairesti <clairesti@hotmail.co.uk>; naomi.taylor
<naomi.taylor@student.manches