# Level 5

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/level-5/6345>\
**Category:** CSG1998\
**Created:** [October 28, 1998, 7:45pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/level-5/6345 "1998-10-28T19:45:16Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 2\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Philip\_Runkel](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/8dc957/32.png) [@Philip\_Runkel](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Philip_Runkel)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 1998, 7:45pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/level-5/6345/1 "1998-10-28T19:45:16Z")

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> From Phil Runkel on 28 Oct 98 in response to Bill P's of same

date concerning level 5:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;An artist, to contribute a new view, must be able to see  
what the rest of us cannot see. A scientist likewise. I was  
charmed to see, through your description, what so many of us  
would not have seen even if we had looked at that video or a  
hundred other rats or videos.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But is it possible to look at a rhythmic repetition as a  
repeated program or as a sequence of programs?

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Although I welcome your postulated levels, if only to show  
so clearly the kind of inclusiveness relation that must exist  
among the levels, I often wonder whether the hierarchy that every  
individual builds as it grows into maturity is measurable  
different from others. Or whether miniature hierarchies are  
built every hour to suit a miniature situation. I am thinking  
here of modeling that you and Marken and Bourbon have done that  
contains tiny hierarchies. Often I can put one of your labels on  
one of those levels by then cannot put another of your labels on  
the adjacent level in that tiny hierarchy.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It is always a pleasure to watch you think. Or intuit. Or  
invent. And same to you, Mary.

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**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers1)\
**Post date:** [October 29, 1998, 11:14pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/level-5/6345/2 "1998-10-29T23:14:31Z")

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Hi, Phil --

> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But is it possible to look at a rhythmic repetition as a  
> repeated program or as a sequence of programs?

Not a program -- programs contain choice points. A sequence, maybe, except  
that a sequence is primarily concerned with ordering, not timing. The  
rhythmic repetition emphasizes timing, and those things we were calling  
events. All this probably needs more work.

> Although I welcome your postulated levels, if only to show  
> so clearly the kind of inclusiveness relation that must exist  
> among the levels, I often wonder whether the hierarchy that every  
> individual builds as it grows into maturity is measurably  
> different from others. Or whether miniature hierarchies are  
> built every hour to suit a miniature situation.

I wonder about those things, too. That's why I don't worry too much when  
our explorations of models seem to involve hierarchical relations different  
from those in the Official List.

> From time to time I warn people that if they take the Levels List as gospel

and build up a lot of deductions on it, they're likely to find themselves  
in the position of being mad at me for trying to improve the model.

Best,

Bill P.