[From Bill Powers (930614.0800 MDT)]
Bruce Nevin (930614.0836) --
If my supposition posted earlier this morning is correct, then
interpersonal relationships are of a different order than other
relationships, such as the relationship between a fingertip and
an object to which one is pointing.
Good. We need some creative thinking about "the" levels. What
would you propose makes the difference? For example, what sort of
perceptual capability is required to distinguish between another
person and a non-person?
Information theory requires a point of view from outside the
control system; it cannot be applied to the control system
itself from its own point of view.
Hooray. Someone else once referred to this problem as that of
"smuggling intelligence into the system." I've been trying to
make this point, but you said it much better.
ยทยทยท
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Best,
Bill P.
[Martin Taylor 930616 17:15]
(Bill Powers 930614.0800 to Bruce Nevin 930614.0836)
Information theory requires a point of view from outside the
control system; it cannot be applied to the control system
itself from its own point of view.
Hooray. Someone else once referred to this problem as that of
"smuggling intelligence into the system." I've been trying to
make this point, but you said it much better.
And I've been trying, with apparently no success at all, to make the
opposite point. One CANNOT make a consistent view of information at a
place in a control system by taking a viewpoint outside the control
system. It HAS to be applied to the control system FROM ITS OWN POINT
OF VIEW.
All the confusion about information seems to come from the idea that
information has to do with a transmission channel, both of whose ends
can be seen by an outside observer. Information can be meaningfully
discussed only from the viewpoint of the one making the observation.
Shannon himself made this point. It does not preclude one from
determining such things as the capacity of an information channel,
but it ensures that one can see such concepts as limiting factors
rather than as the central notions of information theory. I sent
Bill P a copy of the section of Shannon's book about continuous
information a couple of months ago, in which he makes the derivation.
It really should not be so confusing as it apparently is.
Yesterday, I had completed a long response to Bill and Rick's misreading
of Allan Randall's Saturday posting, when we had a power outage, and
I lost it all. Every time we get into this information question, it
seems we have to ever deeper into basics, to try to get the fundamental
notion across. I'll try again, soon, to regenerate that posting. No
time (or inclination) now.
Martin