# List Moderation (was Re: Love and Hate)

**URL:** <http://discourse.iapct.org/t/list-moderation-was-re-love-and-hate/6416>\
**Category:** CSG2003\
**Created:** [December 9, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/list-moderation-was-re-love-and-hate/6416 "2003-12-09T18:11:48Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 7\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/list-moderation-was-re-love-and-hate/6416/1 "2003-12-09T18:11:48Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2003.12.09.1010)]

> Bruce Gregory (2003.12.09.1250)--
> 
> \> Rick Marken (2003.12.09.0925)  
> \>  
> \> And I think exactly this kind of discussion was taking place on CSG  
> \> until a couple weeks ago, when Bruce Gregory returned with his persistent baiting of  
> \> me
> 
> If you want to be taken seriously, I propose that you provide examples  
> of my "persistent baiting." Otherwise the moderator may not know what  
> to censor.

I'm happy to leave it up to the moderator. When I'm the one doing the baiting (or responding  
nastily to whatever baiting gets through) I expect that the moderator will keep my posts out  
as well. It's a form of censorship I am willing to put up with for the sake of having civil  
and informative discussions on CSGNet.

Best

Rick

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory4](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory4](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory4)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/list-moderation-was-re-love-and-hate/6416/2 "2003-12-09T18:36:25Z")

</div>

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.09.1335)]

> Rick Marken (2003.12.09.1010)
> 
> I'm happy to leave it up to the moderator. When I'm the one doing the  
> baiting (or responding  
> nastily to whatever baiting gets through) I expect that the moderator  
> will keep my posts out  
> as well. It's a form of censorship I am willing to put up with for the  
> sake of having civil  
> and informative discussions on CSGNet.

Humor me if you will, Rick. Give me some examples of my persistent  
baiting. I'll be glad to censor myself, but I need some examples of  
what baiting looks like to you. In the interests of civil  
communication, if for no other reason, please.

Bruce Gregory

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no  
one was listening, everything must be said again."

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Andre Gide

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/list-moderation-was-re-love-and-hate/6416/3 "2003-12-09T19:06:34Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2003.12.09.1105)]

> Bruce Gregory (2003.12.09.1335)--
> 
> Humor me if you will, Rick. Give me some examples of my persistent  
> baiting.

It's not worth the time. It may be that your meaness is invisible to everyone but me.

Let's just say that I would feel more comfortable with a moderated list. If a moderator sees  
nothing wrong with your posts and everything wrong with mine then so be it. It will nice to  
know that I'm not contributing to what so many on this list see as its unpleasant atmosphere.

Best

Rick

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_Gregory4](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@Bruce\_Gregory4](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bruce_Gregory4)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/list-moderation-was-re-love-and-hate/6416/4 "2003-12-09T20:51:47Z")

</div>

[From Bruce Gregory (2003.12.09.1550)]

> Rick Marken (2003.12.09.1105)
> 
> > Bruce Gregory (2003.12.09.1335)--
> > 
> > Humor me if you will, Rick. Give me some examples of my persistent  
> > baiting.
> 
> It's not worth the time. It may be that your meaness is invisible to  
> everyone but me.

This sensitivity to unintended insults seems to make you the obvious  
choice for moderator. You've got my vote.

Bruce Gregory

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no  
one was listening, everything must be said again."

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Andre Gide

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Martin\_Taylor2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Martin_Taylor2)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/list-moderation-was-re-love-and-hate/6416/5 "2003-12-09T22:12:57Z")

</div>

[Martin Taylor 2003.12.09.1647]

As a drop-in, drop-out contributor to CSGnet for many years, maybe I  
shouldn't comment on the "moderator" issue, but I will anyway.

If there is to be a moderator, make sure the "volunteer" ("you, you,  
and you"🙂 knows that it is going to take not only diplomatic skill  
but an awful lot of time.

Personally, I empathize with all sides of this tempest in the  
CSG-pot. As a non-target, I found certain postings by all parties to  
be unnecessarily inflammatory (even if the author had not seen them  
that way). Bill P's recommendation not to post anything written while  
in an emotional state might help, but there's another way to achieve  
much the same thing. Leave messages that contain any non-technical  
material unposted until after a night's sleep.

Like Bill, I don't like moderation of an e-mail list. But they can  
work well. I belong to the System Dynamics (moderated) list. CSGnet  
does some things better, other things worse. What CSGnet does better  
is to gently warn newbies of the posting conventions, such as the  
time-stamp to start the message, and the quote of the time-stamp in a  
response. I sometimes find it quite hard to link messages on the SD  
list with what they are commenting on. What the SD list does better  
is to keep focus on the technical questions. I don't know whether the  
moderation or the moderator has this effect, but it does make the  
list a more pleasant one to read.

One inherent difference between any CSG mailing list and the SD list  
is the fact that there are a lot of "canonical forms" of SD, but only  
one of PCT. The SD list has many contributors with the status of  
"guru." CSG list has one plus a "loose canon" (to dredge up some  
ten-year-old history). At least some of the unpleasantness of recent  
postings has probably been enhanced by this. Changing to a moderated  
list won't help.

On balance, I come down on the side of "social moderation" rather  
than formal moderation. If we could develop a convention similar to  
the one we use to get newbies to post their time-stamps, we might get  
a list that we could point our friends toward. That convention is to  
encourage non-involved readers to point out to a poster that their  
words might be misconstrued as provocative (or worse, correctly so  
construed). That kind of intervention might slowly bias the  
conversations toward the more purely technical and less hurt feelings.

As Rick said a couple of weeks ago when Bill said he and I were  
doomed to fight--we can argue enthusiastically about technical  
matters, while still thinking of each other as good people. Good  
technical fights, particularly those that end in agreement, are a way  
to advance a science (or even a technology, sometimes). I remember  
the first time I met Rick was after an e-mail fight, before I knew he  
was really a nice guy. My name badge said "Canon Fodder", and I think  
the joke made it easy to make friends. Jokes can be useful, but only  
if they are obviously jokes--and in e-mail it's hard to write a joke  
that is guaranteed to be seen as one.

I'm rumbling ... rambling, sorry--I didn't mean to pick a fight.

Martin

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@Richard\_Marken2](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Richard_Marken2)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/list-moderation-was-re-love-and-hate/6416/6 "2003-12-09T23:16:20Z")

</div>

[From Rick Marken (2003.12.09.1515)]

> Martin Taylor (2003.12.09.1647) --
> 
> If there is to be a moderator, make sure the "volunteer" ("you, you,  
> and you"🙂 knows that it is going to take not only diplomatic skill  
> but an awful lot of time.

Yes. I think that's enough to convince me that the idea of a moderator for  
CSGNet, whether one thinks it a good one or not, is simply not feasible.  
I guess I'll spend tonight dipping my madeleine into the tea of the "Love  
and Hate" thread and try to explain what it looked like from my  
perspective.

Best

Marcel

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers)\
**Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/list-moderation-was-re-love-and-hate/6416/7 "2003-12-09T23:52:20Z")

</div>

[From Bill Powers (2003.12.09.1649 MST)]

Rick Marken (2003.12.09.1515)--

> I guess I'll spend tonight dipping my madeleine into the tea of the "Love  
> and Hate" thread and try to explain what it looked like from my  
> perspective.

If you adopt my recommendations, don't bother. The official verdict on all  
such arguments is, "Nobody cares how right you were." I suspect that's been  
the reaction of most readers of CSGnet anyway.

Best,

Bill P.