[From Bjorn Simonsen (2007.01.14,12:20 EUST)]
From Rick Marken (2007.01.13.1040)
(I would never say that you control a perception
the difference between perception and reference is
I can imagine a positive perceptual signal and a reference
value less the perceptual signal, then the error becomes zero, but can you tell
me an example where we control a perception that we intend to be zero?
how would knowing how a control system works have
nice, decent German citizen in 1939 when his neighbours
had all elected
an evil, well intentioned lunatic (like Bush) to
be their leader?
They who know how a control system works would say
that people can’t plan the actions needed for control beforehand. They would
say that the neighbours didn’t elect their leader to get a lot European people
killed. Your sentence calls for a more extensive comment. I will do that in particular
in 1939 ignoring the
troubles resulted in the deaths of millions of
innocent civilians; in
the US in 2003-7 it has ended up resulting in the
deaths (so far) of
about 500,000 innocent civilians. Should I not worry about that
because it’s just my perception?
Of course you could worry about that. Today it is OK for
me that people do what they do if they are responsible for their not planned
actions and their effects. But I think I have an integrated knowledge that
other people don’t intend to perceive themselves as incompetent.
Of course they can be incompetent in your perception,
but I think you (almost) always are wrong if you think they wish to perceive
themselves as incompetent.
But I often do
(as I am doing right now with you). I try to control my perception of
how others understand the meaning of many things.
That is OK, then you ask what people wish to perceive.
But is it correct to ask “what to do”? (what do you do when you are living
among incompetents who want one of their own as the manager?)
Several things you have said give me the
impression that you think of
perceptions as arbitrary representations of what
is really out there.
Pardon me for expressing myself so indistinct. I thought my witticism when I said I was
uncertain if you and other people exist should explain that my perceptions are
behind my sensing cells. A know that there is something out there, but I really
try to remember that the world out there may be very different from my
perceptions. In daily life I often point at a car and ask the one next to me to
be careful. It also happens when I get time for myself that I wonder if two
people perceive congruent objects.
You seem to take the idea of “control of
perception” to mean something
like “life is just a dream”. This is where we differ.
OK. May I ask you to explain what life is and why it
is not just a dream?
My perceptions may not correspond to your
perceptions but they are what
I control. I see myself living among people who
have elected a
sociopath. You may see me as living among people
who have elected a
great protector of freedom.
I didn’t know he was diagnosed.
Let me tell in the same breathing that I see the US
people living among people who voted as they did for many, very many different
reasons. The result was an administration and a president who wished to control
his assortment of perceptions. What else can he do? Controlling his perception
he lives in an environment where different Input variables take place. These
input variables are a sample of variables existing in the world out there. One
of the variables out there, which is not among the input variables, is your description
of him as a sociopath.
We are clearly perceiving different aspects
of the same reality.
Most people are, I think.
I think what we have to do is figure out what we
are each perceiving and see how we can come to
some consensus about how
to achieve mutual control of what we are
perceiving. I think that’s
what political dialog should be about
In this example I wish to perceive why you say that other
people, who don’t wish to perceive themselves as incompetent, are incompetent.
I disagree strongly with this. I know that there is no red or blue in
real reality, there is no noise or Mozart’s 21st
Piano concerto in real
reality, there is no heroism or holocaust in real
Everything is perception. According to what you say
one would have to say that because there is no
red, there is no blue,
because there is no noise there is no Mozart,
because there is no
heroism there is no holocaust.
Yes I expressed myself very indistinct. (>If there
is no competence in the real reality, other people can’t be incompetent.)
I agree with “Everything is perception”. But can’t we
say that it is a perception of something. Can’t we say that our perception is
an inner representation of the extern world?
Then the extern world exists. And if it exists it may
have some properties. Some of those properties we perceive (gravity).
People belong to the extern world. They have also
Be observant now Rick.
I perceive other people. I think they are more or less
like me (with different references). I don’t wish to perceive myself as
incompetent when I elect a political party. I know some people say they are
incompetent electing a political party. Many of them do not elect. I think if
we ask the people who elect if they wish to be incompetent, most of them will
answer “no”. Then nobody should describe them as incompetent (or sociopath if
we don’t know the diagnosis).
Swedes used to (and many still do)
perceive Norwegians as stupid animals who should
be ruled by Swedes.
A Swede asked another Swede how he could get a
Norwegian to laugh New Years Eve. The other Swede was insecure and the first
Swede told him: Tell the Norwegian a joke Christmas Eve.
Yes Swedes perceive Norwegians in a certain way. I don’t
know how Swedes perceive, but I can imagine that different Swedes, as
individuals, wish to perceive different perceptions.
If Sweden invaded Norway and started putting you
and your family in cages, >would that all be fine with you because you know
that people see things >differently from you?
I don’t know if I shall answer. You could ask better
than this. I think you think upon Guantanamo. And I have sympathy for the prisoners,
almost all prisoners. I vacillate and I am not ready to say anything about the
way people are punished. But I put a question mark by punishing people for
their actions and for the effect of their actions.