# Madness in the Lying Levels **URL:** \ **Category:** CSG1998\ **Created:** [December 22, 1998, 9:28pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/madness-in-the-lying-levels/6668 "1998-12-22T21:28:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 3\ **Page:** 1

**Author:** ![DTSDTO](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@DTSDTO](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/DTSDTO)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 1998, 9:28pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/madness-in-the-lying-levels/6668/1 "1998-12-22T21:28:41Z")

What is a lie? A psychologist may explain it in terms of behavior -- communication of disinformation, either by omission or by giving a total "bullshit" answer. Example: "No, offissser I have not been drinking." "Well, you were weaving in your car." "No, offissser, can't be." "I can't even needle point." A good sales person -- will always tell the truth (as he "sees" it). A good sales person will FINISH an answer to a question, to his self. Yes, this was a good deal (for ME). All credit applications will be accepted (but not all credit applications will be approved). A product is rarely ever sold -- the perception of value of the product is what is being sold. The car is safer, faster, more reliable, or perhaps it will help you pick up chicks. Always address the wants needs and desires of the customer -- help REDUCE their error signals. After all the error must be very large, to spend their weekend talking with car sales men. SALES 101 Always use FAB. (Feature Advantage and Benefit --- There is no point talking about a feature if you don't explain what the advantage and benefits are to the customer. ) The TEST - the best way to tell if a sales person is lying? Are their lips moving? Is lying always wrong? Why? Nope lying has many benefits for self and others. For anyone who has the intention and principal -- to do no harm. In other words don't make things worse. Examples of lying to others: Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. (My apology to anyone who still believes in them, I was just kidding they really do exist) Honey, does this dress make me look fat? (There is almost never a good answer to this, without lying.) Not now, I have a headache. (I don't want to explain this one) Example lying to self: I am going to stop smoking this year. (which might happen only after I am dead) ...... and I firmly believe to sin no more..... (Driving out of the church parking lot, someone changes lanes without signaling and nearly hits you -- Suddenly you invoke God's name in a way it was not meant to be used.) Are some people liars and others not? Yes, without a doubt. Typically less intelligent people are liars. Because, first you must be caught in a lie before some can perceive you as a liar. To be more fair some people are just better liars and don't get caught as often. They tend use the extremes of interpreting an event. Either extremely vague or concrete, either of which can serve their purposes of trying to create a Misperception in the interviewer or audience. For Example, Vague terms No, I did not have "sexual relations" with.... The perception of the words "sexual relations" sounds so close to "Sexual Relationship" one is lead to believe, their was no relationship of a sexual nature. Instead of meaning I did not have intercorse with her. Although, this was not a lie in grammar or sentence structure, the interpretation of the terms, is where and why people felt like they were lied to by the Pres. For Example Concrete Thinking "No, I did not have a 11 yr. affair with Jennifer Flowers." This was not a lie either, just careful phrasing. He later admitted to having a 10 yr. and 9 months, affair with her. He did not denied having the affair, his contention was about the time frame. We all lie at one time or another. There is no insult, crime, value, or harm in the behavior of lying. In short there is nothing good nor bad about lying. The key to it is NOT in the behavior, of lying, but in the motives and intentions. Are you sparing feelings, having a surprise party, saving time and energy? Are you covering your ass, will it cost some one something they can't afford, are you deceiving yourself. As always, intentions are more important than behaviors, in defining a human being. MARK "I'm not Lying about nothing" LAZARE ---

**Author:** ![Lise\_Marken](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/34f0e0/32.png) [@Lise\_Marken](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Lise_Marken)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 1998, 2:19am UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/madness-in-the-lying-levels/6668/2 "1998-12-23T02:19:05Z")

[From Rick Marken (981222.1820)] Me: > What is a lie? Mark Lazare (981222) -- > A psychologist may explain it in terms of behavior -- communication > of disinformation, either by omission or by giving a total > "bullshit" answer. I was interested in answers in terms of our understanding of people as perceptual control systems. Isn't intent important to whether we are dealing with lying or not? S-R and reinforcement theorists would surely not be considered liars, right? > The TEST - the best way to tell if a sales person is lying? Are > their lips moving? I think there might be better ways to test for lying. Me: > Is lying always wrong? Why? Mark -- > Nope lying has many benefits for self and others. Yes. What does this mean in terms of HPCT? Me: > Are some people liars and others not? Mark: > Yes, without a doubt. Really? > Typically less intelligent people are liars. Why? In PCT terms, of course. > Because, first you must be caught in a lie before some can perceive > you as a liar. So people who are not caught are not liars? > To be more fair some people are just better liars and don't get > caught as often. Are these the smarter dumb people? > They tend use the extremes of interpreting an event. > Misperception in the interviewer or audience. > > For Example, Vague terms > > No, I did not have "sexual relations" with.... > > The perception of the words "sexual relations" sounds so close to > "Sexual Relationship" one is lead to believe, their was no > relationship of a sexual nature. Instead of meaning I did not have > intercorse with her. I think your conclusions may be driving your premises;-) > For Example Concrete Thinking > > "No, I did not have a 11 yr. affair with Jennifer Flowers." This > was not a lie either, just careful phrasing. He later admitted to > having a 10 yr. and 9 months, affair with her. He did not denied > having the affair, his contention was about the time frame. So, are the smart people the people who are not having affairs? Or the ones who don't get asked such questions? > there is nothing good nor bad about lying. > The key to it is NOT in the behavior, of lying, but in the motives > and intentions. Are you sparing feelings, having a surprise party, > saving time and energy? Are you covering your ass, will it cost > some one something they can't afford, are you deceiving yourself. Ah. You must come from the Henry Hyde school of lying; it's OK to lie about treasonous activities if your intention is to stop communism but its absolutely wrong to lie about private sexual activities if your intention is to keep them private. > As always, intentions are more important than behaviors, in > defining a human being. I agree. I just wonder how you know that Clinton's intentions are nefarious. How does his lying about his sexual behavior affect you? You seem to think Clinton's intention in lying about his sexual activities was nefarious. It seems to me that his "lies" were simply an attempt to be responsive and at the same time not reveal things that were none of anyone's business. I think the appropriate answer to the questions asked of Clinton about his sex life (just as the appropriate answer to McCarthy's "Are you or have you ever been a member of the communist party?" and Melvin Belli's "Have you used the word "nigger" in the last ten years") was (and listen carefully here): "None of your fucking business, asshole". Best Rick > **···** > > -- > Richard S. Marken Phone or Fax: 310 474-0313 > Life Learning Associates e-mail: rmarken@earthlink.net > [http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/](http://home.earthlink.net/~rmarken/) ---

**Author:** ![Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bill\_Powers1](http://discourse.iapct.org/u/Bill_Powers1)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 1998, 1:14pm UTC](http://discourse.iapct.org/t/madness-in-the-lying-levels/6668/3 "1998-12-23T13:14:22Z")

[From Bill Powers (981223.0611 MNST)] Mark Lazare (981222) -- > We all lie at one time or another. There is no insult, crime, value, or harm > in the behavior of lying. In short there is nothing good nor bad about lying. > The key to it is NOT in the behavior, of lying, but in the motives and > intentions. Are you sparing feelings, having a surprise party, saving time > and energy? Are you covering your ass, will it cost some one something they > can't afford, are you deceiving yourself. > > As always, intentions are more important than behaviors, in defining a human > being. Well said. Yet there is a school of moral discipline that says "I don't care about your motives; motives are just excuses. I care only about what you do." Best, Bill P.